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Official PS3 vs. Xbox 360 vs. N. Revolution
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WVengence
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10. June 2005 @ 13:21 |
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Cmmn: Why, exactly, am I grasping at air? Everything I have stated is using the information that is available on the net somewhere or another. Any points I make that require (educated) guess work, I preface as such.
Now, I will repeat (again) my stance on the specs. My point is that both companies can get the stats to say what they want. Yes, 256GB of bandwidth comes from the EDRAM. Never denied that. IT IS FACT HOWEVER that the 360 has 278GB of system bandwidth. Where it has it is irrelevant to the number. I'll ask again, how does the RSX get 1.8TFLOPS? Until I see the calculation, I have to assume that they used the same sort of logic adding up numbers otherwise I can't concieve of how it's done. So please, let me know EXACTLY how Sony came up with the 1.8TFLOP #. Until you do, don't bother taking apart MS's numbers, that's hypocritical.
Let's be clear. If you throw numbers around without showing HOW those numbers are attainted, then your just paroting what Sony says. When you do that, I will parot MS right back to you since those numbers are JUST as valid. I could care less how they got the numbers, just the end result because that is all your throwing out.
As for sticking to the SPEC sheets, I believe that I'm the one that has had to remind you of that fact, so why don't you tell me how difficult it is. Point is that you dismissed the lack of HDD and when I pulled out the numbers to prove that it has a drastic impact on performance, you reply with things like
"You don't know for sure about the spec that the cell will include only one PPE" despite that the specs say just that.
"We still don't know for sure if an HDD is or is not standard on the PS3" Last I check, I didn't see 160GB 2.5" HDD
"yes, actually, yes they can do this standard with all their games, because they are smart enough to understand most will have a drive, and would want to match the 360 in this dept" Didn't see that in the specs either...
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WVengence
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10. June 2005 @ 13:25 |
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Sammorris: You can actually use PC comparisons for alot of the tech. Alot of it is just PC tech that is either modified to some degree(but still works the same way) or is something the console can do custom stuff that won't appear on a PC (Like the EDRAM of the 360).
For the PS3, the Cell, XDR Ram, GDDR3 Ram, Memory Card Slots, Network ports, Wireless, Bluetooth & BR-DVD are all PC technology (pretty much unchanged from the PC version) and the RSX is a modified G70 GPU...
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velascoj2
Junior Member
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10. June 2005 @ 13:48 |
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Good Points "Vengence"
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velascoj2
Junior Member
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10. June 2005 @ 13:50 |
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Now what are those facts about the "Cell" you were going to state earlier?
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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10. June 2005 @ 14:39 |
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I am aware that most of the technologies going into the PS3 and Xbox360 are merely modified from exisiting PC concepts, it would be foolish not to expect that at this stage, but you can't really predict how the hardware will work with new processor technologies, and I expect in the case of the PS3, new operating systems...
This does seem a little bit like a long "we will see" thread to me...
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WVengence
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10. June 2005 @ 15:21 |
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Sammorris: Your right. In the end it's all about wait and see.
Velascoj2: Here are a few links to avoid making a huge post...
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-1.ars
This talks about the Cell design and some technical information.
Here is another very good article, but I warn you that it is pretty technical.
http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT021005084318
The basic effect is as follows though. The cell is one PPE core with 512k (which, actually is almost a carbon copy of the 360's cores, but uses XDR memory controller) as well as the 8 SPE's with the 256K ram. I note that this RAM isn't really like the L2 cache of a processor because it doesn't do any caching, have tag lines for caching, do prefetching or anything else that cache does. What is does do allow each SPE to DMA information from main memory that it can then store and work on without intervention from the PPE. It acts almost exactly like system ram in that regard instead of cache.
Otherwise, I'll say read the articles so I don't rehash information and we can chat more.
Also, here is a link for the 360 processor. It talks about the difficulties that the PPE's will face with next gen games and also gives you a good insight into the Cell's PPE.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. June 2005 @ 15:22
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velascoj2
Junior Member
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10. June 2005 @ 15:27 |
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Cool Man, I'll check'em out!
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Ludikhris
Suspended permanently
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11. June 2005 @ 21:15 |
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Im done on this thread guys... been watchin it for awhile and dropped some good news here. I still maintain that PS3 will be stronger than XBOX360, common sense. I find this arguement a lot like politics. You have Sony fans and MS fans, like Republicans and Democrats. Were all about to have a great big election and someone will be stronger. When reading this thread and a lot of others one would think that Microsoft (democrats) was going to win because of how much you see them everywhere, parading around, screaming their opinions. Its not so much that there are more of them, they just whine louder. Over the hundreds of forums out there you see far more people arbitrarily screaming "360 WILL DOMINATE" however when the election comes the Sony fans will subtly cast there vote with their $300 and XBOX fans will have to sit back down in #2 for total unit sales and total hardware power. Then they will find some other angle at which to say Sony cheated or came up with their numbers wrong or whatever you want to whine about. You know, second isnt bad, they still stand to make a lot of money. I just think too many people get personal about this and want to get a 360 cause its the best just like XBOX when it wont be so this time. Im sorry thats just not the cards that MS is trying to play. If it were they wouldnt be trying to push it out faster than the other consoles. When making your console choice ask yourself a few easy questions....
"Who makes the games I want to play?"
"Whats more important, that I have it this year, or that I wait till next year and get more power?"
These are the two basic questions concerning hardware decisions. Given current data and such we really should assume PS3 stronger. It just makes no sense to think Xbox 360 will be a faster system overall. I still imagine that the difference will be nominal.
btw Im neither conservitive or liberal... im very moderate and just really observant.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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12. June 2005 @ 01:53 |
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Ditto, and amen to that.
The PS3 will be the console for me, with more power, likely more games that i would want to play, etc. etc.
I think the poll on www.gamefaqs.com about it kind of speaks for itself:
PS3: 34133 (42.56%)
NR (which hasn't been discussed at all in the past few pages): 21324 (26.59%)
Xbox360: 13443 (16.76%)
All three: 11299 (14.09%)
For every vote the XBox360 got, the ps3 got 2.539, thats impressive!
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bored34
Newbie
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12. June 2005 @ 07:05 |
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jpp01uk
Senior Member
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12. June 2005 @ 07:11 |
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that article is a little bit biased, have a look who wrote it that EXPERT works for ATI!
isnt ATI making the graphics for the X-Box 360? So its bound to be the best machine in the world according to the guys helping to build it!
im sure nvidia would say the same about the ps3 :)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. June 2005 @ 07:11
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AfterDawn Addict
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12. June 2005 @ 08:20 |
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Not that it's indicative, but this EXPERT is a newbie!
"This time around, [Nvidia doesn?t] have the architecture and we do, so they have to knock it and say it isn?t worthwhile. But in the future, they?ll market themselves out of this corner, claiming that they?ve cracked how to do it best. But RSX isn?t unified, and this is why I think PS3 will almost certainly be slower and less powerful."
I'm sure Sony could say something completely opposite to that. As I have said previously, Power is nothing without proper utilisation, and power did the first-gen xbox no good, and despite being much a dedicated fan of ATi, I really do believe the PS3's architecture will be more powerful, and not only that, but unlike the xbox designs, more successful.
Bitch at me if you will, but I am pretty sure Microsoft still have some work to do before they can knock Sony off their perch.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. June 2005 @ 08:24
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Senior Member
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12. June 2005 @ 08:33 |
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HEY bored34,
maybe that expert is right. but my main concern is. a game with GREAT graphics will need alot of space on the disc. thats why the PS3 discs will hold up to 50 gigs(blu-ray) and the 360 will have 9 gigs(DVD). i think that will play one of the largest roles. DAta sizes are the most crucial. what will sony do with 50 gigs. once there done making an enourmous game, they will probably have a 10-20 gigs remaining. and to fill the disc up, theyll boost those graphics so high youll think "fuck the 360, i have 400 hours worth of gameplay and the best beautiful graphics, stronger processeors. and MAYBE A SO CALLED BETTER VIDEO CARD SAYS SOME GUY ON A WEBSITE THAT IS SPONSORED BY MS OF COURsE ATI will say its stronger, why would they say its weaker????
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. June 2005 @ 08:34
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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12. June 2005 @ 14:13 |
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OH MY GOD solargame, where do u live?
I live in Pilgrims hatch, only a couple of miles from the hypocrit bunker...
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Senior Member
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12. June 2005 @ 14:19 |
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what are you talking about dude??
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JayD1056
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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12. June 2005 @ 18:03 |
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So can you explain to me why half life 2 is less than 2 gigs? This is one of the most beautiful (in a creepy way i guess) and most deatiled games that people use commenly to determin how a desktop pc performs? You really don't need more than 7 gigs for anything. Unless of course your intentions are to make sure the people playing your racing game will never have to listin to the same song twice when they are playing your game of course (PGR 3 for example). Then i think i'd want a 50 gig dvd. This way i'd be able to copy all that data (thank you microsoft for giving me hundreads of songs to listin to).
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Senior Member
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12. June 2005 @ 19:04 |
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Microsoft is just a big control freak trying to control all of the worlds tech needs,, and when something they cant control speeds away from them,, they flip, and try as hard as they can to dominate that thing.. Think of America, to the rest of the world... so in conclusion Microsoft=America .. haha sorry i just felt like getting that off my chest
 http://pspcrack.tk/
"Rarely is the question asked; is our childern learning?" - G.W.Bush |
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Toiletman
Senior Member
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12. June 2005 @ 19:40 |
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Quote:
what are you talking about dude??
He was trying to insult you.
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Marine123
Newbie
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12. June 2005 @ 21:32 |
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Dude, Ludikris? Republicans and Democrats? What the hell is that? This isnt politics man. Lmao, sony ppl will quetly cast thier votes? jees you think to much of yourselves. we dont ''Scream out opinions'' as u put it. just some of us have fierce loyalty to mcrosoft and XBOX. and i challenge you to find a better shooter than the halo series (and in awhile a whicked trilogy) for ps2. simple, you cant, there is none. im with u bored34. the xbox probably will be atleast a bit more powerful than the PS3. and it will definitly have better games. have you even seen some of the previews for xbox360 games on gamespot? freaking awsome. just look at Perfect Dark:zero, Tony Hawk: American Wasteland, Madden 2006, and Gears Of War. They are UNBELEIVABLE!!! So dont classify ppl u dont even know, let alone understand. that makes you one thing: a fool. Thats it, thats all I have to say.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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13. June 2005 @ 01:50 |
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Toiletman, absolutely not, you've got it all wrong, it's ust the irony of having a "secret nuclear bunker" being signposted from all directions. I saw the picture on solargame's signiature, and merely wondered if he lived in the area, since I do. It's not my interest to insult anyone here.
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halo360
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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13. June 2005 @ 02:33 |
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Sony=cheap when i think og Sony i think of cheap. cheap tvs, cheap walkmen, cheap console. Cheap stuff made my kids. a company that cant make good things. a company that is about to fall, a company that thinks that it will beat the xbox360 with only hardware, not with service not with software. and look the final fantasy serice is coming to the xbox360 and the maker of that said sony is company that dont care about the game makers(not in these words) they want a level, gaming cant go. sony lost $300 million in 2004.
xbox360.im going to get AOE3 every one should buy one when it comes out.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. June 2005 @ 02:36
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cmmnsense
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13. June 2005 @ 06:30 |
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I'm with Ludikhris on this, it's just become a flamefest again, somewhat anyway. Not necessarily Wvengence myself and a few, but now we've got straight up fanboys like halo360 chiming in and just repeating a toddler "my dad is better than yours" statement. Notice the "newbie" underneath halo360's and a few other 360 fanboys names(not you Wvengence),I think it fits very well. After looking at the cell link you posted vengence, it doesn't mention anywhere that the SPEs are dependent two at a time on the PPE, rather that the PPE is a two-way 64-bit processor. From realworldtech.com-
"In the CELL processor, each SPE is capable of sustaining 4 FMADD operations per cycle. At an operating frequency of 4 GHz, the CELL processor is thus capable of achieving a peak throughput rate of 256 GFlops from the 8 SPE's. Moreover, the PPE can contribute some amount of additional compute power with its own FP and VMX units."
I lost my dictionary, what does "contribute some amount of additional compute power" mean? I see where the 256 GFLOPS comes from now, and don't see evidence of SPEs operating only two at a time. Yes, I know it's single precision, what does gaming, or a real time application, work well with?
The cell processor is beautiful for real time apps like video games. And is going to work well with 64-bit apps and DP(25-30 GFLOPS) outside of the Sony PS3.
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cmmnsense
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13. June 2005 @ 07:25 |
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I just read that "expert" article on the GPUs from gamespot. If this guy from ATI thinks that xbox 360 will outperform the PS3 because of it's CHOICE to use and nVidia's CHOICE not to use unified pipelines, that's good for him. It isn't some secret tech.
Wvengence, each SPE is a full blown vector computer, and the PPE is a full powerpc core that only certain requests/computations have to go through. All seven SPEs will perform vector graphic computations at once, not only this the PPE will perform two instructions at once, where the SPEs cannot.
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. June 2005 @ 07:58 |
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Now i am not goint to repeat your argument in sony's favour halo360, because that is just as bad, but I don't seem to recall Sony TVs, walkmans etc. being the cheapest. Quite the opposite in fact, they're more up the top of the price spectrum, and with good reason. Although admittedly the playstation console series is not renowned for quality, the rest of their range is, and Sony have made some of the best products around in their field. If they can achieve a majority sales figure three times over (likely to happen, but of course not certain) then they must be doing something better than their competition.
Can I ask how many Sony products you have bought, halo360, and if very few, why?
I think your response to this may decide the credibility of your previous post... ;-)
But seriously, despite my favour of ATi graphics components, at the momnent the numbers seem to be in favour of the PS3 overall, and "more powerful than two 6800 Ultras in SLi" is quite something for ATi to live up to, and since the R520 i believe hasnt been released yet, they have yet to do, though I'm sure crossfire will achieve it. Of course, there is only 10MB of RAM dedicated, high speed or not a small figure.
Can someone answer me though, will the Cell effectively operate at 7x 3.2ghz and the xbox360 at 3x3.2ghz or will there be some limitations on that? I've heard so many conflicting theories I'm not sure what/who to believe!
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WVengence
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13. June 2005 @ 09:10 |
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Solar: Great Graphics don't need alot of space anymore...
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-1.ars
procedural synthesis... A great example of this in action. To have a 100 different tree's in a forest right now, you need to create 100 different models and texture them. With PS, you can create one texture and a 100 text files of descriptions. The basic effect is that it is estimated that using these techniques, they can get an effective 80% 'compression' of data. Considering that games aren't really more than 4GB (not including demo's and the like) 9GB is more than enough (and would be without these new techniques).
Everyone: Out of curiosity, why is it that Sony can say "We are creating Skynet, we will now own the world with all out power" and that's fine. Now when someone at ATI says "Hey, we'll beat the RSX because we have a better product" then it's all biased and untrue.
Don't get me wrong, if everyone was on the 360 wagon, I would fight for the PS3 but seriously, that is hypocrytical. If you are going to accept what Sony says as true, then you also have to accept what MS/ATI say as also true.
As a side note, the G70 score just under 7800 on the 3Dmark05 benchmark while the R520 scored over 10000. This is just with the unified architecture, not using the EDRAM and only used 24 pipes instead of 48 (Note, that the R520 has 32, but they are only running 24 on the prototype). While we don't have #'s from the consoles, the cards these are based on show that ATI kicked the crap out of NVidia by almost 30%.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23752
Now, while I agree that the RSX will be more powerful than the G70, I don't think it will have the same boost as the ATI GPU, so I think that the ATI fellows comment is fairly true.
Cmmnsense: From the Arstechnica article "The SPE's very front end can take in two instructions at a time, check to see if they can operate in parallel, and then issue them either in parallel or in program order. These two instructions then travel down one of two pipes, "even" or "odd," to be executed" Otherwise, I will try to find a source that clarifies it better for you. As for the contribute some comment, they mean that if the PPE has cycles left over, it can do FLOPS as well (but they don't add this because it will typically be busy with control & branch threads)
Sammorris: As noted above, the R520 running at 75% power has officially beaten 2x6800 SLI (and realistically, it doesn't approach half the power of the 360 GPU). Not only did ATI live up to it, they flew past it.
As for the Cell, I'll quote my post from earlier...
" I agree that the Cell can process 7 threads at once, however, the SPE's are controlled by the ONE PPE, which can only handle 2 threads at a time. This means that while it can work on 7 threads at once, it can only move 2 threads to the rest of the system through the PPE per cycle. Meanwhile the 360 can work on and move 6 threads per cycle. So the Cell can Process more (117%) than the 360, the 360 can deliver more processes to the system (300%). "
I will look for an article that clearly states this, but from what I remember of the IBM conference, that is how it runs. The main difference is when your running threads that take longer means that the Cell has to move less threads in/out and can then use all SPE's more efficiently, giving it an edge.
The PS3 will have better processing, the 360 better GPU. They will balance out in the end and have simular games. Now Sony NEEDS to do something about online play because if they don't, MS will dominate the market. Otherwise, I predict that Sony will come out the slightly ahead in this generation BUT MS will match them in sales. MS will win in America, Sony in Japan and they will split Europe. However, MS will also get a foothold in Japan this generation and by the next generation, they could very well take the market.
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