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Official PS3 vs. Xbox 360 vs. N. Revolution
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. June 2005 @ 11:30 |
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kind of glad to see the ATi graphics system being the better, and comes as no surprise really.
Since I prefer PC gaming to console generally (since higher picture quality can be achieved with slightly less cost, contrary to how it seems), I will be hoping that these systems make their way to PCs, and at the low price!
The online gaming matter is indeed a serious concern for Sony, and if they mess it up this time round, their sales really will suffer.
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cmmnsense
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13. June 2005 @ 12:20 |
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We have yet to see if MS will outsell or if Sony will do better, let's jsut let time tell on that one.
How did Sony mess up with online for the PS2?
The SPEs recieve instructions w/out the PPE. From the way realworldtech described it, the SPEs are independent, communicate with each other, and the PPE is separate and handles 64-bit instruction and instructions SPEs cannot perform because of their limitations to vector math. I see nowhere in your links or your quotes that the instruction is recieved, two only, from the PPE and then to SPE, It even appears in the actual pictures of the cell that the PPE is bipassed and not at the helm of incoming data, two paragraphs from now I confirm what is seen in the picture, not diagram, but picture and (both picture and statement) sourced from realworldtech.
"The SPE's very front end can take in two instructions at a time, check to see if they can operate in parallel, and then issue them either in parallel or in program order. These two instructions then travel down one of two pipes, "even" or "odd," to be executed"
That's your quote above you used to support that the PPE issues commands through only two threads to the SPEs. That quote, however, displays that the SPE can take in two instructions, and does not specify anything about the PPE... what was your point, the SPEs are even more powerful than I assumed? The instruction is executed in the SPE, I don't know where your going with that, the quote doesn't relate to the PPE. I don't know if your getting consued with the abbreviations PPE and SPE, or if your trying to confuse me. The quote is about one of the eight SPEs, not about the PPE.
The SPEs are connected through EIB to the PPE, but the SPEs are also connected to system memory through MIC. The SPEs recive instruction from either source and both the PPE and SPEs recive and execute their own instruction independently from MIC. The SPEs recive and execute instruction simultaneously without the PPE. The PPE rather is another, more capable, core. In all reality the cell processor has 9 independent cores, 1 power processing core, and 8 SPEs which are actually full vector CPUs due to their own 256KB LS (cache).
Each core is independent and can communicate with System memory, each other, and the PPE.
Bottom line: SPEs do not recieve, but can coloborate, their instrution from the PPE, rather the system memory jsut like the PPE does. The 256GFLOPs compared to the 6 threaded xbox 360 CPU, which is what, ~115GFLOPS, I forgot the exact number, is solid. The computing capabilities general purpose or not, are superior in the cell processor. Damn, the 256GLOPS is only the rating for 8 SPEs too, PPE not included (two threaded!).
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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13. June 2005 @ 13:35 |
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Online play wasn't a failure for the PS2, but I'm sure many more people would have used it had the network adapter come with the PS2... For one I didn't bother to buy one, but then I'm lazy... :D
But of course you have to consider so are a lot of us. It just seemed that the xbox was better planned in the online department.
I must reiterate though I think we are giving Nintendo a great injustice in this discussion, as their revolution consople is also likely to sell quite well, and because it doesn't have reams of technical specification, it doesn't get discussed.
I don't seem to recall people worrying about the clock rate of the original Playstation, or much about the PS2 for that matter, except of course for xbox fans to brag about, 733mhz vs 300 or whatever.
With this generation it seems all about power. A shame really, when you consider consoles always used to be about the fun factor, and still should be. I'm sure I'd have a great time playing on an xbox but I get the most benefit from a PS2, and hence have one, and bought it a while after the xbox and Gamecube came out. I had previously always been a fan of Nintendo (and er... mario!) but for the 2001/2 generation my heart switched to the PS2. So be it. Everyone is free to make choices, whether or not the console has XDR or GDDR memory. A large majority of users simply won't know or care. They'll go with what they prefer.
I think this discussion has gone a bit far with technical specs, but on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with discussing them, and i do sometimes wonder what we'd be discussing otherwise.
BUT - Have you noticed how many "we'll have to wait and see"s there have been? Almost every other post ends in words to that effect. Maybe we should stop being inquisitive little children and wait for the joy of using these beasts.
Until then, I don't think I have much to discuss.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. June 2005 @ 13:35
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cmmnsense
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13. June 2005 @ 14:22 |
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Xbox better have been better, and come online ready considering it came out a year later and costs more. As far as I'm concerned Nintendo is out of the running for everyone except classic fans and kids. They've backed down in the fight and decided to make a cheaper and smaller "quiet" (wow that's a cool feature) system. Don't try and bring the Nintendo Revolution into this, this leans toward a serious discussion. Not a mario party, srry.
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Senior Member
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13. June 2005 @ 15:30 |
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I would buy the 360 if it was wifi standardly installed. i hate going out to buy a hardware upgrade for something.still a ps3 fan.
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Senior Member
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13. June 2005 @ 15:47 |
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this really ticked me offand yet it makes me strangly happy.BELOW IS STRAIT FROM ps3-hacks.com
Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has revealed the true purpose of PlayStation 3, further explaining the functionality of the console and its place in home entertainment.
Speaking to Impress PC Watch, the SCE boss boldly stated that PS3 ?is not a game machine?, going on to proclaim that Sony has ?never once called it a game machine?.
So what is it then?
Well, according to Kutaragi, the machine is to be an ?entertainment supercomputer? that, unlike other computers, which are invariably built primarily for other purposes, is designed to deliver the best all-round entertainment experience yet seen.
?PCs that are currently available have been created as work tools,? Kutaragi explains. ?They?ve begun selling computers with media playback capabilities, such as the Media Center PC, but those just imitate the functions of home electronics. It?s not like those machines have been created solely for entertainment.
?On the other hand, PS3 has been created as a computer for entertainment. Entertainment refers to a lot of things, and not just to games. PS3 will be able to provide powerful functions for all forms of entertainment.?
Kutaragi also explains that PS3 is the product SCE has been building up to over the years with the release of its previous machines.
?We haven?t been creating our PlayStations for the sake of games,? he explains. ?Our belief, and the motivation behind running our company, has been to [apply] the power of computers to entertainment and enjoyment.
?We equipped the original PlayStation with a 3D graphics chip, and we equipped PS2 with the Emotion Engine. PS3 isn?t designed to lean towards games. It?s not a computer for children. In the sense that our goal has been [to design] a computer that?s meant for entertainment, you could say that the original PlayStation and PlayStation 2 had existed as steps towards PlayStation 3.
?PS3 is the product we have been aiming for since the establishment of SCEI.?
Comments (0)
Possible PS3 Prices
source: ps3portal.com
I?ve taken the following information from the source above; however, I?ve gone through the liberty of converting the Japan Yen price to USD.
Apparently the PS3 will be priced around the same cost as the original Playstation and Playstation 2 at their launch, ~ $380. This is fantastic news considering the power behind the PS3.
?Now, a report over at Impress PC Watch is indicating that Sony Computer Entertainment has cited a price point of less than $380 for the PS3 launch in conversations with its business partners.?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. June 2005 @ 15:49
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WVengence
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13. June 2005 @ 16:08 |
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Cmmn: My understanding of the Cell is that the SPE's do recieve instructions through the PPE, however, until I find an article to reinterate that, I will agree with your version (Although Realworldtech is doesn't touch upon data flow, really). Also, the 256GFLOPS is for a 4Ghz Cell, so don't go throwing that number around. That being said, I will still agree that the Cell is more powerful, but the 360 GPU will be head and shoulders above the RSX.
As for how Sony could mess up online? Easy. All I have heard to date is that the PS2 model was the best, and it wasn't. If they are just going to repeat that without going for a unified front (as in, leaving it up to the developers), then I believe that they will fail miserably. MS did Live really well and the improvements they are making are set to take it to an entirely new level.
Solar: That is an 'interesting' qoute. I'm not really sure how to take it though. Does that mean that they are viewing games as secondary to entertainment?
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Senior Member
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13. June 2005 @ 16:50 |
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vwvengence:more of an all around media center not solely games.
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cmmnsense
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13. June 2005 @ 16:56 |
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I think it's well established the cell is the superior CPU, duh. When I first started my goal was to prove that. Now everyone is saying the ATI GPU will be "head and shoulders" above the nVidia GPU. I am not sure which one is better, but when I feel up to it, I'll hopefully be able to dig enough, even though little is known of either, to prove why Sony claims 1.8 TFLOPs and which is going to suit it's own machine to produce better graphics. A key point here is that the CPU inherently supports the GPU, and combining both together which system will produce the smoothest and to the naked eye best overall graphics.
Avoiding the PS3's 1080p capabilities will be hard, because if you put the PS3 up to your 1080p and then the same game and PS3 up to 720p the difference is going to be noticable. Sad that the xbox 360 won't support it, but if ATI is truly better they'll easily pick up the slack by graphics performance.
There isn't much on either GPU so it's hard for either side to make an argument. At this point all you can really do, instead of rattling off pipeline specs, is to look at each sides claimed product of the GPU, such as shaders and dot production, etc. You can configure all you want, in the end you need specifications on what appears on the screen and how the eye sees it.
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cmmnsense
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13. June 2005 @ 17:02 |
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As far as whoever's comment on the PS3 entertainment blah blah. Have you looked at the features? The PS3 is going to be sweet. I can't wait to use my PSP to pull data off my PS3's HDD when I'm thousands of miles away on vacation. Screw a big mem stick, wifi my way to a (hopefully at least) 200 plus gig HDD, I hope they get bigger by third party companies at least. That's my favorite feature amognst many. The only way you'll get a full display of some of the feature is through a 2 hour press conference, but it's worth it, just to see some of the things listed, and alot not listed (claimed at least).
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WVengence
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13. June 2005 @ 17:31 |
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Solar: Nope, Media Center was last week. Sony is up to 'Super Computer' now...
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000833046205/
As a side note, it seems confirmed that the HDD isn't included now.
Cmmn: GPU's...
Let's assume that we can manage some sort of educated guess on the console GPU's based on the PC technology that spawns them...
NVidia at E3 said that the RSX would have about as much power as 3 6800 Ultra's (which was stated at E3).
Now, 2 6800's running SLI got 7200 on 3Dmark05, so we can assume that 50% (3 cards) more would result a score of 10800.
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=10853 (6800 score)
Now, the 7800GTX (G70) which the RSX is based upon scored 7800, beating the 6800SLI. Now to be nice, let's say that the RSX will have 50% more than the G70 for a score of 11700.
Since ATI has just released the R520 (the basis for the 360's R500) we now have a few numbers to play with. First, let's add the the R520 has 32 pipelines instead of 48 (although only 24 are running on the prototype) and doesn't have the EDRAM of the R500.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23648 for the pipes...
They just ran the 3Dmark05 and came up with over 10000...
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23752
This equates to a 22% (real world) advantage over the G70 while running at 75% power. Since this is using only 24 pipes (instead of 48) AND lacks the EDRAM, it would be running at less than half what the R500 will and almost matches what Nvidia says that RSX will be capable of.
Obviously, these are rough numbers but it's pretty easy to see that the R500 WILL be more powerful than the RSX.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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14. June 2005 @ 00:11 |
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I don't dispute that, but at the moment it looks like the PS3 may be a very small fraction more powerful than the 360 since, though the GPU is a bit slower, the CPU gives the impression to be a LOT faster if the previous specs are confirmed.
But of course, if the ties between the CPU and GPU via software differ in efficiency, it's still very much all to play for.
Though I am disappointed by the immediate shunning of the NR previously, it is quite clear this thread is for discussing the two "entertainment supercomputers" and not "light gaming economy"
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WVengence
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14. June 2005 @ 02:30 |
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Sammorris: Hey, man. If you want to discuss the Revolution, feel free. Admittedly, I haven't read much on it, but that's due to the lack of details that were revealed.
Despite what might have been said previously, Nitendo will hold onto it's market share and remain a force in the market. Talk on, it is a free country/world, after all.
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. June 2005 @ 03:44 |
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Though I am welcome to talk, if I'm talking to no-one then there's not much point talking!
Of course, I haven't seen many specs about the NR, but i think that's the whole idea, they won't look much up against the Xbox360/PS3's power.
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cmmnsense
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14. June 2005 @ 08:18 |
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I am going to take very lightly your comparison using different, yet similar, cards for PCs that are already on the market. Just using their "score" isn't an adequete reflection on either GPU for the console which are going to be inevitably different. The comparison does elude to a stronger ATI GPU, but it isn't proven until we use the actual GPUs in the comparison. Sony used the 6800 as a benchmark, but doesn't mean the PS3 is just going to have a few 6800 stcked together, no. It's just something the public can get a idea from.
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. June 2005 @ 08:30 |
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I can't see the console GPUs bearing much physical resemblence to PC GPUs because of their size, and consequently it seems unlikely that they will bear much resemblence in terms of performance. Until we get some proved dynamic in-game render footage from them, no-one will know what thery are really capable of. After all, even the PS3 dev. kits were shipped without the RSX, weren't they?
Not even the developers know what the system will be capable of just yet.
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WVengence
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14. June 2005 @ 10:02 |
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Sammorris: Send me some links on the Revolution. I'd be glad to discuss is. Just not certain where to start.
Sam/Cmmn: The #'s weren't meant to be scientific, but do support the claim the ATI fellow made that the R500 will be better than the RSX (Of which, the RSX is almost a direct decendent of the G70, but tailored for a console which is where it got the mentioned 50% boost).
"Sony used the 6800 as a benchmark, but doesn't mean the PS3 is just going to have a few 6800 stcked together, no. It's just something the public can get a idea from." True, but then the numbers I used are just something we can get an idea from.
At this point, we hit a roadblock though, since you both have said that until we see the hardware in action we won't know. Unfortunately, that applies to everything (particularly the Cell) since we are effectively saying that we can't draw any numbers from the PC technology that accurately reflect the Console tech.
All the information & comparisons that we have done so far are based upon the stats used for PC's and it is an all or nothing game. We can't say the Cell 'would' be more powerful because the PC cell is without also saying the R500 'would' be more powerful because the R520 certainly is.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. June 2005 @ 11:18
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WVengence
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14. June 2005 @ 16:48 |
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This was interesting...
"Mr. Kutaragi tried to interest Mr. Jobs in adopting the Cell chip, which is being developed by I.B.M. for use in the coming PlayStation 3, in exchange for access to certain Sony technologies. Mr. Jobs rejected the idea, telling Mr. Kutaragi that he was disappointed with the Cell design, which he believes will be even less effective than the PowerPC. "
Hmmmm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/technology/11apple.html?pagewanted=2
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. June 2005 @ 16:49
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coh420
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14. June 2005 @ 17:30 |
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Ok I've gone through this whole thread and its mostly about PS3 and Xbox 360? where are all the Nintendo fans? I think they don't want to take part in this because you people bitch them out as soon as they speak, with that comment by cmmsense that was pretty lame, just because Nintendo doesn't make GTA style games or Halo style games doesn't mean they are all kids games, look at Metriod Prime (1 & 2) and the new Zelda Twilight Princess. Its gamers like cmmsense that make these kinda good forums boring and crappy, anyways here is a article for those who want to know a little more about the Nintendo Rev http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?articleid=02ea1a40-ac09-4cdf-...
BTW ATI are the best graphics card company to go with (both Xbox 360 and Nintendo Rev are using their gfx chips)
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anyone54
Newbie
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14. June 2005 @ 22:12 |
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I just want to know if i'm right or wrong the PLAYSTATION 3 only has one main core right?
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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15. June 2005 @ 01:34 |
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To Wvengence, i think a fair few of Jobs' decisions may have been questionable.
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cmmnsense
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15. June 2005 @ 07:05 |
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Jobs is a bigwig at apple, he doesn't know what the difference between a MHz and a GHz. Ok, that was exaggeration, but you get the idea. He'll be cutting his own throat on this one, because I have no idea where he thinks this isn't revolutionary, and much better than conventional processors, just wait until they get this thing on the 60nm process and bump the voltage up and make that thing run 5GHz+.
Maybe this explains why Apple computers are found in schools (not in my college, we've got good comps, you know, IBM/dell etc running win xp) and in some business networks and not in the mainstream. Maybe Jobs is the reason why Apple is and mac os are second rate to intel and windows. Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, he supports the cell through IBM, Jobs is an idiot.
anyone 54, it depends on what you would call a "main core". If you read the last few pages you'll understand how the SPEs turn out to be more than a core in some ways, and less in other ways, but the cell still has a full power pc processing core also. The cell design proves that more "main cores" aren't necessary. In my opinion, I would consider each SPE, in essence, a full vector CPU.
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AfterDawn Addict
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15. June 2005 @ 08:38 |
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Haven't a couple of oil tycoons taken over from Gates now as the richest men?
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morda8
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15. June 2005 @ 11:45 |
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OK,Guys I proved u wrong, xbox 360 is better than the 'PS3'. Look for your self:
If you don't believe this then go to http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951p1.html?fromint=1
The Xbox 360's CPU has more general purpose processing power because it has three general purpose cores, and Cell has just one.
Cell's claimed advantage is on streaming floating point work which is done on its seven DSP processors.
The Xbox 360 GPU has more processing power than the PS3's. In addition, its innovated features contribute to overall rendering performance.
Xbox 360 has 278.4 GB/s of memory system bandwidth. The PS3 has less than one-fifth of Xbox 360's (48 GB/s) of total memory system bandwidth.
CONCLUSION
When you break down the numbers, Xbox 360 has provably more performance than PS3. Keep in mind that Sony has a track record of over promising and under delivering on technical performance. The truth is that both systems pack a lot of power for high definition games and entertainment.
However, hardware performance, while important, is only a third of the puzzle. Xbox 360 is a fusion of hardware, software and services. Without the software and services to power it, even the most powerful hardware becomes inconsequential. Xbox 360 games?by leveraging cutting-edge hardware, software, and services?will outperform the PlayStation 3.
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cmmnsense
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15. June 2005 @ 12:11 |
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OMG! I am so mother fucking sick of stupid douche bags like you. You dumbfuck little kid, of course xbox is going to say they are better. Their damn system bandwidth that's "five times" greater than PS3 is a goddamn joke with 10MB of EDRAM providing an ungodly amount of it. Damn it anyways, read the past three pages and you'd know about all the bitch propaganda from both sides, and that the main meory bandwitdth of the PS3 puts the xbox 360 to shame where it counts. If you read the posts you'd know that "three time the genral processing power" is a retarded joke, because each of the eight SPEs isn't just a core, their full vector CPUs, better than cores when it come to supporting extensive GPUs and graphics capabilities. Damn it, "by leveraging cutting-edge hardware, software, and services?will outperform the PlayStation 3." WTF are you thinking, xbox live is going to kill PS3 even though no one knows how PS3 online is goibg to work yet? SOB, PS3 has more feature inside and outside of gaming onboard, WTF are you thinking. Your just plagiarizing shit off xbox's websites, of course they are going to find ways to say "we're better than sony, buy our system". And of coures Sony is going to do the same goddamn thing, except there shit is back by many outside sources and an actual conference on the cell and a separate conference on the PS3, not just some goddamn MTV POS.
How can people be so friggin stupid? Read the previous posts and you'll see that we've already "broke down the numbers" and the PS3 CPU and sytem bandwidth (aside from a insignificant 10MB buffer) is superior damn it. And at least we used sources other than xbox.com and ign.com and sony.com hey let's get away from the goddamn propaganda site and get to some actual facts. "three time the general purpose computing" MY ASS. Get the hell out of this form if you don't know what your stating and can't back it up.
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