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3. August 2005 @ 22:20 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
....and my barebones pc, with an incredibly tiny 192W PSU must have the wrong label on it, it must really be a 912W PSU, because i have no problems with DVD's or anything else :)



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4. August 2005 @ 00:47 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
smsmike,

I'm not saying that I completely disagree with you but regardless of how hot and accurate the laser is, if the dye is of poor quality and the dye layor is inconsistant as it usually is with garbage media then you are going to have write errors usually resulting in what I would consider a coaster. Coaster=any backup that is not recognized, freezes, or has any pixelation.

It doesn't matter how good the tools are, if you use rotten wood to build your house it is going to fall down.

Mort

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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. August 2005 @ 00:59

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4. August 2005 @ 01:11 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
wow smsmike...that is quite a bit of personal experience that you have imparted on us...as ddp stated earlier, i have well over 3,000 burns thus far and can tell you that i have been building PCs for myself/friends/clients/family/etc. for over 10 years.

while i can agree with you that having a decent power supply is VERY important as to how a PC will perform, IT DOES NOT give a user the "magical bean" that will end all burning issues if you use crappy/cheap/low grade media, less than average burners, or if the laser beam is "hot enough" or not...

i currently use a Zalman 500W PSU for my particular (main) PC setup, (the Zalman is great btw, as i use my Zalman PSU in conjunction with my gigantic Zalman cpu cooler w/ artic silver thermal grease). while i have had dozens of cheapy psu's in the past from no-name brands to antec to thermaltake, you name it, i've probably used it at one point or another; as long as your power supply provides the necessary power to each of the rails, your computer will remain stable. THIS however, DOES NOT have ANY bearing on giving you consistent, good quality burns on cheap/low grade media.

the consistency of the DYE quality is most important for good backups, it has NOTHING to do with the power supply. whether your burner's "laser beam" is hot enough or not, it doesn't matter if you are using low quality dye/low grade media~ you are still going to get a pixellated/frozen/skipping video quality that WILL NOT last years to come as you suggested.

i have used practically 80% of ALL media out there that is readily available in the U.S. so i've had the worst of the worst and am now using the best of the best, Taiyo Yudens (arguably, yes this is MY opinion about TYs..but, i KNOW many will agree with my statement).

i've had the dreaded CMC MAG Memorex fail after what i thought was a "successful burn" 3 months after it was burned...that is the reason why i speak so lowly of them...i've had fake TYs that were made in taiwan that had PI/PIF scans comparable to some of the WORST scans possible that creaky put up in his signature...

mind you, these were done on my cheap crappy burner like my old Optowrite DD1205 (12x burner) that died after 6 months of use AND on my high quality burners, the Pioneer dvr-109 as well as my Sony dru-710a (both of which are still going strong to this day)

i have also had burns using my lite-on 1633s as well as my nec 3520a, ALL of which came down to BAD/LOW QUALITY MEDIA= CRAP BACKUPS. i have had quality PSUs on each of my computers, so i know for a fact that the power supply has absolutely NO EFFECT on the quality of backups...if my PSU were going bad, then i would not have had a successful burn at all, but ALL my successfully completed burns have been ok.

i'm not trying to pick on you here smsmike; as i do agree, in part, about the importance of the PSU (power supply) on your computer, but it is very far fetched and even arguably ridiculous to say that if you have a good, stable power supply, then you will have good burns regardless of cheap media/burners as long as the "laser beam" remains hot. :) that is simply, NOT TRUE AT ALL.

(end of rant) here~ :P





Recommended Media:

Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
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4. August 2005 @ 04:31 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Sorry smsmike,

But you have kind of opened a can of worms up here :-) I will have to echo just about everything Kivory has suggested above. I also have to add if you build PC's from scratch as you say then you might need to get a little better clue about PSU's and what they do. Not all 500w power supplies are good heck there are perfectly good 250w PSU's that supply's a consistant voltage along all the rails to all hardware that will perform much better. I my self have been building and fixing computers for over 11 years now (making a pretty good living at it too), and I find your whole statement to be absurd. Granted a good power supply is a very important part of your system, but it isn't going to help the laser get any hotter or burn any better. Now if the original person had a bad power supply to begin with then there may be a problem, but then the problem would always be a problem no matter what media was used. I don't believe anyone here would disagree that a good power supply is a must when considering building a system, and often overlooked, but to say it directly effects how hot a laser gets in your burner? Com'on you don't really believe that do you? If you do why not just plug you burner into a 110v wall outlet because then your laser will for sure get plenty hot!! LOL In closing I wish you all the luck with your lower quality, labeled DVD's and I hope they all still play in a couple of years.

Cheers



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4. August 2005 @ 05:05 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
that 95 percent of the Power Supplies that come with Factory Built Computers, and Bare Bones Kits, are not nearly powerful enough to keep a DVD Burners Laser Hot Enough for consistently satisfactory burns.
I have had my factory built dell for two years running three burners, with no problem, my burns show no quality loss and play fine. Previously I had PC that I built and the burns were also fine, in fact I find very little difference between the two. bbmayo stated it best.
Quote:
Granted a good power supply is a very important part of your system, but it isn't going to help the laser get any hotter or burn any better.



Ed5150
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4. August 2005 @ 07:49 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Is there any place that is better to buy this media online. I know they sell the Maxell's at Wal-Mart.
Thanks ahead of time.
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4. August 2005 @ 08:44 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
supermediastore.com, rima.com, newegg.com, and merritline.com are all reputable online stores. Stay away from shop4tech regarding media.

Mort

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Ed5150
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4. August 2005 @ 12:55 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
What about Prodisc media. They seem to be a good price and Pioneer certified from supermediastore
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4. August 2005 @ 14:11 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Ed,

Prodiscs work ok with some burners but I don't recommend them with lite-on burners. They were unreadable after being burned on my litey but play just fine if burned with my benq.

Mort

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Ed5150
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4. August 2005 @ 15:01 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
They list that they are compatible with my model no. recorder
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4. August 2005 @ 15:16 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
You can try them if you like. I am just going by personal experience. Most don't recommend prodisc but once in a while you will get a good batch made by mitsubishi chemical company. The media code on the ones I had were prodisc R03 DVD+R injet hub printables.

Mort

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smsmike
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4. August 2005 @ 15:38 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Well, it's nice to see that everyone's paying attention. A difference of opinion usually produces a wealth of information if enough people get involved. I posted that little rant because I see too many people blow off the problems that new folks are having by placing the blame on "Questionable Media" instead of taking the time to really consider the problem they're having. A lot of really good help is in this forum as well, so don't shoot me for pointing out something I have observed..

Even bad media will produce a good burn if it's done by the numbers. Unfortunately, the new people don't always know what the numbers are, and they tend to skip a few. The end result is bad burns and piles of coasters.

I stand by what I said about the importance of a strong power supply. On that I won't budge. A good hot laser can compensate for a lot of media problems - not all, but many.. I have proved that too my own satisfaction many, many times by purposely using media that I knew was close to pure garbage, and still getting very satisfactory results, with disks that still played flawlessly 12 months later. I have tried all of the media that has been complained about here in this forum, and found most of it to be useable. But, then again, that's MY experience ONLY.. You are quite welcome to your own opinions; there never seems to be a shortage of them around here.. (Large Grin.)

I might add one thing. I have taken quite a few CD and DVD Burners apart over the years. It's easier to clean laser lenses and lubricate slide rails if you have direct access to them. I learned to repair drives of all sorts back in the days of the old Commodore 1541 Floppy Disk Drive. The disks were about the same size as today's DVD's and held a whopping 625 K. But, they worked well on the old Commodore 64, which is what I learned to program on. Anyway, be that as it may, what I have discovered during these trips into the guts of the drives is that the Clamping Devices (The part the holds the disk against the drive spindle during read and write operation) on some of the drives, seem to lose their pressure and, subsequently, allow the disk to slip on the drive spindle at high speeds. Now, this presents no big problem during read operation, but it certainly can wipe out a Write.

So, for you hearty souls who have "Older Drives" with a lot of time on them, and are not afraid to open them up, you might try tweaking the disk clamping mechanism if the unit starts to give you bad burns.. While your in there, clean that laser lens and lubricate the slide bars...

- Mike -
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4. August 2005 @ 21:28 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
and all those people with newer drives ? - well in your eyes those people ALL must come under the duff PSU problem.

wow.



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Amonds
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4. August 2005 @ 23:52 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
DuckByte,

Data drives do not stream when you play video. They read faster than needed and this allows for numerous re-seeks and re-tries. In a way, data drives spend most of their time waiting for the data to be cleared from the buffer.
Standard DVD players read at at a much slower speed and rely mostly on the back-end's capability to mask errors on the fly. By back-end, I mean the video decoders. The best decoders are still by MediaTek. But even the best decoders cannot handle it if the engine (the optical+servo module) is not able to read the disc before the buffer runs out. The streaming method of DVD players compounds this problem since the system does not have enough time to perform numerous re-tries to correct errors like the data drives.

The way to solve your Pause, Stutter and Breakup problem is to invest in another DVD player. Preferably one with a MediaTek solution. If you want to do this, bring your problem discs to test your would-be new player at the shops. Good luck.
Amonds
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5. August 2005 @ 00:02 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Just an addition to my previoes post.

Though I agree that its important to use good media, often cost is an important consideration too. I'd very much like to buy a low-cost media over a A-branded one that costs twice as much. However, this has to be tempered with your recorder's and player's capability. get a single piece of a few media which you find affordable and try out. If you find them good then get a spindle of them that will last you for a while. There are some new algorithms being developed by consumer DVD recorder manufacturers (that's where media recordability is most important) which will soon find their way into PC drives. Just wait for a few months.
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5. August 2005 @ 00:04 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
that's good info, but it still doesn't stop crap media being crap :)



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Amonds
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5. August 2005 @ 00:20 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Yep, crap media are here to stay. There are many C-branded discs that are marginal media from A and B brand manufacturers. Many 'recycling' companies buy these reject media at scrap-value and re-sell them. That's how you get super-cheap, unlabelled, 100-pk Taiyo Yuden and Prodisc ID media from bargain shops which turn out to be crap discs. Consumers cannot escape from these crap discs unless they stick to the A-brands. Many, like myself, live with them. Its a cost-quality compromise that one has chosen to make upon purchase and shld not complain about.
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5. August 2005 @ 04:06 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
@ Mort and Ed5150,

I have used the Prodisc and been very happy with them for the most part. If you get the -R white inkjet printable to the hub you will get the MCC manufatured ones ;-) awesome buy if you like using the -R format which I don't mind because all my players and game console's play them perfectly. If you get the silver -R you will end up with CMC Mag not usually good but I didn't have a problem with the 25 I had I still wouldn't recommend them just because of CMC's track record. The +R's white inkjet printable come with media code prodisc, and those tested out even worse then the CMC Mag ones? So if you pick the right Prodisc's (x8 -R White inkjet printable to the hub) you will get a good deal and some quality media..

Cheers



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5. August 2005 @ 07:36 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
bbmayo,

You aren't supposed to tell me that about the prodisc DVD+R hub printables. Guess I better pull some out that are several months old and check to see if they still playback ok. They played perfect right after they were burned and the scans were comparable to my verbatums made by MCC. Hope I don't have to remake all the backups done on this media.

Mort

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5. August 2005 @ 09:26 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I don't know what to tell you Mort, but mine didn't come out so good on the scans they weren't bad and they still work fine I just wouldn't recommend them compared to the MCC manufatured ones and TY's ;-)



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5. August 2005 @ 09:44 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I might have gotten lucky. Rescanned a couple and they still appear to be ok. Don't worry, I never recommend prodisc media to anyone they're too much like memorex in regards to you never know what you're getting and too particular as to what burners they will perform well in.

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DuckByte
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5. August 2005 @ 13:22 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
WOW!! This thread has certainly generated a considerable amount of dialog with many different opinions and suggestions. However, getting back to my original question "Does anyone have any insight on the technical reasons why playback is only a problem on the standard DVD players?", it seems to me that a bad burn is a bad burn no matter if you play it back on your $5000 PC or a $29 Chinese DVD player that plugs into your TV.

It's my understanding that this issue "could" be a function of the DVD player firmware and I've heard that many of the cheap no name players have firmware that's more forgiving than some of the major brands like Sony and Panasonic. Also, nothing has been said about country codes.

Comments????????
smsmike
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6. August 2005 @ 12:25 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
DuckByte - The Proper Answer to your question was in Amonds first reply to you:

In layman's terms - The Buffer (Temp Storage) area in PC player programs allow the system to read the material many times (over and over the same area) if errors are found. Each pass over an error area (might) give up a few more bits of data until the system finally reads it all properly and can move on. While all this is taking place, the Buffer is feeding the picture to the player. As long as the Buffer can stay ahead of the player, the picture and sound will be good..

On a standard DVD Player, the buffer is much smaller, or in the case of some players, it doesn't exist. If the player hits a bad block of data, it has no time to re-read the block before it sends the information on to the TV set. The result is that you SEE the error.

It has been my experience that most DVD Players will play scratched up and flawed disks that Computer DVD burners have trouble reading - In other words - the Stand Alone players are usually more forgiving. But, as the old saying goes, not all DVD Players are equal...

Re-Read what Amonds wrote...

- Mike -
DuckByte
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7. August 2005 @ 10:14 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Amonds wrote . . . "The way to solve your Pause, Stutter and Breakup problem is to invest in another DVD player. Preferably one with a MediaTek solution."

This sounds like great advise. In order to reduce the clutter and number of cables and components, I would prefer to use a DVD-VCR Combo unit with the MediaTek chipset. Does such an animal exist? I tried a few Google searchs with little luck locating any "combo" units. Can anyone recomend a make & model that meets these specs and/or a website where I can place an order?
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grafton
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7. August 2005 @ 15:17 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
hello out there, something i need to ask you guys since,you were talking about media. ARE YOU SAYING THAT CHEAP MEDIA WILL DEGRADE AFTER A TIME, AFTER BURNING. BECAUSE I HAVE SOME DVDS THAT WOULD NOT PLAY AFTER A TIME CAN THAT BE BECAUSE OF THE LOW QUALITY AND WILL MOST DVDS DEGRADE AFTER TIME
 
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