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Burning a specific Dvd @8X when it should be 16x
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forkndave
Member
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12. December 2005 @ 17:03 |
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I decided to donate a Verbatim 16X to science. If you burn a test disc with Nero CD/DVD Speed it will record the speed and display it when a disc quality test is ran. This disc was burned at 16X CAV. The speed doesn't reach 16X untill the edge of the disc. This isn't the greatest burn but it is still acceptable. The quality score is 93 and that's not too bad. I used to burn my 16X stuff at 12X, generally, but Nero 7's Nero Express doesn't offer a burn speed. It burns as fast as the firmware will allow. The quality score is based entirely on the peak PIF. With a Lite-On a peak PIF of 3 will give you a 93. I have a Lite-On and a BenQ, but I usually scan with the BenQ because 8X scans are acceptable whereas the Lite-On requires a 4X scan. I'm not saying that people should necessarily burn as fast as they can. It's just that Nero hasn't been giving me any option to change the speed. Nero itself might, but I prefer to use Nero Express.
Dave
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megabyte2
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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12. December 2005 @ 17:17 |
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Wow diskmania are you for real? You really believe that 16x burn speed will give you the same error free results that 4x or less will yield. Im wondering if you have burned a disk or understand whats actually going on. I bet you believe intel makes different speed chips in the same class. Its the same for media within a brand its all the same speed do you really think they make 4x,8x,16x media. Or do you think they just make one type per thickness and specification and market it to different people like say gasoline do you think 93 octane is different then 87 In a car. Ever overclock a really low end chip and make it go as fast as the fastest chip in that class? Like this chip im using right now its a 2ghz intel its running at 4.2ghz right now its the same chip. Sorry dude I just thought about having some fun at your expense. Would you buy air from me if it came from beverly hills?
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smsmike
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12. December 2005 @ 17:17 |
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I took a screen shot of the results of the Read Error Test that DVD Info Pro did, but I have no idea how to post it to the forum. It won't go cut and paste like every other board I use. HOW do you post a screen shot to this forum..
Oh yes, and the error test on the 16X burn was (zero) read errors detected and I did a full disk scan twice (two different burners).
My OEM version of Nero 6 doesn't include the fancy test screen that you folks are posting. It just has a little screen with a graph. It tested the disk at zero read errors as well.
I will post the screen shots when someone tells me how!
- Mike -
I stopped counting when I reached 60!
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smsmike
Member
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12. December 2005 @ 17:27 |
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Quote:
Mort81 (AfterDawn Addict) 12. December 2005 @ 21:28
Post some scans using Nero disc quality of those 16x burns.
For those of you who are still technology challenged:
Overview of Plextor PL-716AL
The PX-716AL DVD±R/RW CD-R/RW internal E-IDE (ATAPI) drive from Plextor® offer all the advantages or our legendary CD-RW drives and DVD drives. Along with double/dual layer (8.5GB) and dual DVD format capabilities, the PX-716AL is also supported by Intelligent Recording technology to enhance your recording activities.
The drive achives blazing fast 16X CAV performance on recommended 8X DVD+R media, and burns a 4.7GB DVD in less than six minutes, the drive also supports dual-layer DVD media, enabling users to burn up to four hours of high-quality.
Note: 6X DVD-R DL Available on March
Total Solution Features
Part # (Retail Kit in Brown Box): PX-716AL/SW (Internal) (Box Contents)
Part # (Bulk Pack(10)): PX-716AL-BP (Internal)
Easy to use - Slot-loading
DVD Double/Dual layer allows you to record up to 4 hours of high-quality MPEG-2/DVD video on a 8.5 GB disc
Intelligent Recording Technology supported for recording at high-quality and optimum speed
AUTOSTRATEGY Writing technology for unknown media with uneven quality.
Intelligent Tilt? Precise laser control via liquid crystal and three-dimensional tilt adjustment for uneven disc surfaces.
PoweRec® technology is a sophisticated write strategy providing superior quality recording at maximum speed for your chosen media
Buffer Underrun Proof Technology prevents buffer underrun errors
Buffer Memory - 8MB
Achieves 16x write performance with recommended 8x DVD±R media
Support DVD+RW background format
Support DVD±VR format for direct disc recording
Black front bezel
Short drive length for small form factor PC
Failsafe mechanism to retrieve discs in the event of a failure
OS Support - Windows® 98SE/Me/2000/XP?
One-year full warranty (parts and labor)
I stopped counting when I reached 60!
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Senior Member
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12. December 2005 @ 18:08 |
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Quote:
You folks might get better results at the higher speeds if you invested in some better burners
there goes that costing me more money advice thing.
Quote:
when you folks tell me that you can't get good results at 8x or 16x, I have to question your hardware or your technique. One or the other is screwed up; big time!
The only mistake i made was in listening to you. I burn fine at 8x. Don't give me its the operator, or hardware causing the failed burn. ITS THE 16x BURN SPEED in my case that caused it to fail. Nothing else. I have a new burner (bought a few months ago), my firmware is up to date. Try telling me its the media. Tell Kivory666 aka Doc that the media is what was wrong with my test. Im not saying you don't burn at 16x, funny how you haven't posted a disc scan as many have asked you to do. No, i wasted enough time, and enough discs on this 16x burn is the way to go idea. You 16x burn speed promoters should be required to PAY for every disc, and wasted hardware buying ppl are going thru by listening to you. You owe me .30 cents so far. How about i go out and you buy me a new drive? That must be the problem here. How about you PAY FOR IT?? I never had a burn fail like that either, until i listened to you guys who promote 16x burns. Like i said, i only wasted 1 very good disc. You guys want me to spend lots of money to fix my 16x failed burn. I fixed it by burning at 4x. Call me crazy, but i am going to keep my money, and will continue to have SUCESSFULL burns at 4x. Maybe if i boosted the power of the lines coming in to the house, i could get max power out of my laser, and be able to burn the other side of the disc with data too? Maybe pigs will sprout wings and fly. Just because someone has been around, doesn't make them automatically smart. Listen to such things with lots of money in your pocket. And expect your new guru to tell you how stupid you are for not achieving the 16x burn. Ive done some stupid things in my life, and i count listening to you 16x burners as one of those stupid things.
Have a happy life burning at 16x, i really wish you well. Just don't go around promoting your ideas without expecting an argument from me. It may go something like this. Your full of S**t. Fill in the blanks.
Die CMC Mag!!! |
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smsmike
Member
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12. December 2005 @ 21:22 |
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Quote:
MaxBurn (Member) 12. December 2005 @ 23:08
No, i wasted enough time, and enough discs on this 16x burn is the way to go idea. You 16x burn speed promoters should be required to PAY for every disc, and wasted hardware buying ppl are going thru by listening to you. You owe me .30 cents so far. How about i go out and you buy me a new drive? That must be the problem here. How about you PAY FOR IT?
I have no problems with reimbursing you for the disks you lost, and I might even be willing to send you an NEC ND-3500a drive.
Fact is, if you would be willing to do the burn tests on Your Computer, I would be willing to provide you with the disks and the drive to do them with. Then, we shall see where the problems are.
I burn 16x disks with no errors and no problems. If I send you one of my drives, and a stack of the disks I use, you should get the same results; UNLESS, there are some other factors in play. If there are, we need to find out what those factors might be - so everyone can get good results at 16x.
The only way to find out is if two honest people get together and runs the tests instead of their mouth!
If you're willing, I am!
- Mike -
I stopped counting when I reached 60!
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AfterDawn Addict
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12. December 2005 @ 22:17 |
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I think it all depends on your computer specs AND the quality of your dvd player. My computer is excellect, but my dvd player is not so good. I tried burning at 8x once, and it played like crap. I'd also like to know if anyone has tried burning a ps2 game at 16x. As for saying people who burn less than the rated speed of the media are dumb is just ignorant. I burn 8x discs at 4x because i use ritek and they no longer make 4x media.
V9 PS2, flip top, SMD, DVDLoader
Pioneer 107, ritek g05
DVD Shrink, DVD Decrypter, Nero |
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Blighter
Member
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13. December 2005 @ 01:13 |
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Here are some scans :
Plextor DVD+R 16x (Yuden000 T03) burned at 4x on Liteon 1635S :
...and burned at 16x...
And now the scans of Verbatim's 16x DVD+R (MCC004) burned at 4x :
and 16x :
I can do more tests if you like, i have some Emtec crappy media, as well as some TYG02 8x DVD-Rs, some RicohJpnr01's.
P.S All media was bought from www.svp.co.uk
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. December 2005 @ 02:21 |
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That's what I'm talking about. Talk is CHEAP, so bring it on... bring on those 16X burned versus my 4X burned scans.
Maxell (Hitachi - made in japan), burned at 4X
Maxell (Hitachi - made in japan), burned at 4X
YUDEN000T02 - burned at 4X
[Taiyo Yuden - from Doc.
YUDEN000T02 - burned at 4X
YUDEN000T02 - burned at 4X
Maxell (Hitachi - made in japan), burned at 4X
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 02:38
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 06:25 |
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smsmike
No, you don't have to pay for the disc. I just wanted you to know that your advice to burn at 16x WILL cost ppl money. Wasted discs, new drives, lost time and effort.. It all adds up. Some ppl don't have a lot of money. I have never been bothered that my drive and media is rated at 16x, but doesn't do it, or with the quality i like. You seem to be implying a 16x burn is just as good or better than a 4x burn, and i know better. I will try another 16x burn on my lite-on drive this time, and you may be right. My LG might not be able to handle 16x even though it says it can do it. I will post the scans if the 16x burn makes it. I don't have any issues with you guys pushing the envelope on technology. Just don't go saying 16x is the way to go without lots of ppl reporting failures. Our whole mission here is to get ppl to have successfull burns, not just fast burns, but good ones. Now that 93% quality post of a 16x scan is fairly impressive. I would have thought the disc would come out much worse. So i save maybe 6 minutes off the burn time, but the errors go up. I can wait 6 minutes more to get better quality.
Really i have no beef with you 16x burners. Someone has to push the edge just to see where it is. For me the edge is an 8x burn. I am only going over that speed as i am wondering what kind of scan i am going to get on a 16x burn.
Thank you, but i will stick with my drive and techniques. There is nothing wrong with either as i have no need for a 16x burn speed. 4 to 8x burns work 100% of the time for this old school moron. Kinda reminds me of the tortus and hare fable. Remember who won?
Die CMC Mag!!!
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smsmike
Member
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13. December 2005 @ 07:51 |
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MaxBurn I didn't intend to insult you, or anyone else for that matter. It just amazes me that here, at a site dedicated to DVD Technology, so many people are frightened to death of CHANGE and anything New and Different.
Seems like everyone is on the cutting edge of Horse and Buggy and they are bound and determined to keep those newfangled automobiles off of their streets.. The go too fast and cause accidents!
Well, nobody was willing to tell me how to POST a screen shot to this forum, so I can't put fancy pictures on your screen, and nobody wants to experiment with anything except the SAFE old technology that they have always used, so I am really wasting my time trying to get them to move forward with the technological advances in the systems they say they are teaching here.
I apologize for being the thorn in everyone's side - but I did get you to try 16x again, and maybe some of you even learned a few things you didn't know before.
- Mike -
I stopped counting when I reached 60!
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forkndave
Member
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13. December 2005 @ 08:21 |
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If you want to post a picture you have to go to a web site that will host them such as http://www.photobucket.com . After uploading the picture to them you have to insert this in your post:
[img]picture info from photobucket[/img)<(this should be the back half of a bracket) At photobucket's web site you can see the desired information below the picture in the box that says "IMG". I generally right click on the box and select "all" and "copy" and the I paste it in my word processor and print it so I can read it accurately. I have tried pasting it into my post, but that seems to never work for me. here is what I typed in for an earlier picture that I posted:
[img]://i3.photobuket.com/albums/y75/forkndave/16X16X.jpg[/img) <(this should also be the back half of a bracket. If I put it in there it doesn't display right in the post).
I intenionally spelled photobucket wrong so that the picture would not display and you can see what I did. Hope this helps.
Dave
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 08:29
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 09:15 |
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@smsmike
I really am open minded about new technology, and repeated this test, this time using DVD Decrypter for the burn. Nero is fine, but everything has to be just right to get a good burn. I have more coasters using Nero than any other program.
This time i used March of the Penguins as the movie, ISO ripped to HD using Shrink. Same Verbatim 16x DVD+R discs were used. I used the Lite-on drive to do the burn.
First disc at 16x burn:
Quality score of 90. Better than i expected.
Next burn at 4x:
Quality score of 93. I expected much better than that from a 4x burn.
And now for the real surprise (for me at least}:
Quality score of 95.
It looks like my set-up works best with 8x burns in this case.
The 16x burn took about 5 minutes.
The 8x burn took 6.5 minutes.
The 4x burn took 13 minutes.
So, in my case for a 5% boost in quality, i will slow it down to 8x, and the cost will only be 1.5 minutes more of time. I think that is worth it.
Now as to how to post images, you have part of the answer when you do a post, it tells you what format to use, and i will copy that part.Quote:
[*img]http://www.theurl.com/picture.jpg[*/img] -- This will show a picture.
I had to insert an astric as this site would try to show that as a picture. What that means is you have to host your picture at another site, and link to it that way. I will walk you thru it. Lets keep away from the edge of the earth on this journey, i think it's flat..:)
I use http://imageshack.us/ as my host site, as it is free and easy to use. Lets go there and put up an image:
I only captured part of the screen as showing the whole thing would throw off the formatting of this site, causing you to have to shift right to view the text. Thats what happened with Blighters pics. Too wide for this forum. I find 700 pixels or so as the max width before you run in to a too wide picture.
Once you have browsed to your file, and hosted it (uploaded to the site), it then takes you to your image page.
Its that easy. Just remember to use lower case letters on the img.
I will link to a thread where we show how to use paint as your screen capture program:
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/259299
also a thread on hosting:
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2/252375
See, we are open minded here, and willing to help. I learned something about my set up, and what speeds i can get out of my drive/media. Its just when you start making your point by calling everyone who burns slower than you a Moron, Old Fart, Old School, Afraid of Technology... All these things are insults, and you were only putting up words, not facts. Calling ppl idiots because they don't do things your way, is asking for it. Quote:
Burning 16X disk at speeds UNDER 16X is just flat DUMB - unless you have CRAP for a burner, a small power supply or a very OLD Computer.
None of which applied to me, but you slam ppl who have less than you.
Now i bet if you put up posts of your burns at the various speeds, you will find one speed your system likes, and gives you the best quality. It probably will not be the 16x burn. Make your point without insulting ppl, and you might get more reasonable responses. Make your point with cold hard facts, not a lot of words. I know you didn't know how to put up an image, and maybe now you know how because i decided to help you. I didn't have to, but i understand your intention, just didn't like the tone. But, hey, i've been in the military too, and can take any insult you care to throw out there. It doesn't bother me. I just want to help ppl, not start pointless arguments over who has a faster/better machine. Most ppl coming here i bet don't give one squat about 16x burns, they just want a good burn. A 16x is more likely to fail, particularly if you have an older system, and are new to burning. (no, im afraid the power supply doesnt really enter in to the picture) I am glad you are happy with your 16x burns. Really, more power to you. Please don't tell some newbie asking for help, that all they need to do is invest tons of money in upgrades and everything else to reach the magic 16x burn speed. Yes it can be done, i never doubted that. The quality is not as good as burning slower, at least in my case. Lets see what yours looks like at 16x, 4x, and maybe even 8x if you feel like running the test. If you have any problems hosting the image, or putting up a picture, just post here, and i will help you along. I didn't rig my test in any way, kept everything exactly the same, only changing burn speed in Decrypter.
No harm done, im tough. I like a good argument. Words alone are not going win your argument. I'm not from the show me state, but show me 16x is better.
Die CMC Mag!!!
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forkndave
Member
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13. December 2005 @ 09:29 |
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Incidentally, if your pictures are too big you can use Paint to shrink them. After a picture is loaded into Paint go to images and select "Stretch/Skew". I generally change the 100 in the two blocks to 70 or 75 and this will make a full screen picture fit in a post without stretching the post out so that it's hard to read.
Dave
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 09:45 |
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Thanks for that info on stretch/skew forkndave. I am going to have to mess with that. Most of the time i am using paint, and move the program i want to capture to my upper left part of the screen. Do a Ctrl+ Prt Scrn for the capture. Paste in paint. Then i change the image attributes and set the size of the caputure to 700 by 600 pixels or so. That stretch/skew feature will come in handy for a full screen shot if needed.
**edit**
I just tried that, and you still need to change your image attributes, or you will show a shrunk down screen, and still have an image size of 1024x768 which will be too wide for this forum. It does shrink down the picture, just check you image attributes after that, and change it.
Die CMC Mag!!!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 09:50
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 11:06 |
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Ok one more scan, this time a 4x burn of some DVD-R Taiyo Yuden 4x rated media Doc gave me. Only thing changed was the media. Boy, im gonna have quite a few copies of March of the Penguins lying around.
Quality score 93
So the cold hard facts are burning at 16x produces MORE errors than burning slower. Nothing changed there. Data proved it. Id like to see a 16x burn scan posted with NO ERRORS. Quote:
Oh yes, and the error test on the 16X burn was (zero) read errors detected and I did a full disk scan twice
That would make it a 100% score. Come on lets see that one... :) CRC errors are different than PIF PIO scans. None of my tests had CRC errors either. Lets keep comparing apples to apples. Put up a Nero disc quality scan of those 16x burns and let the figures speak for themselves.
Using quality media, and burning slowly produces better results than using crappy media and burning at 16x. Care to dispute that logic? The numbers are there for everyone to see, and make up their own conclusions.
@smsmike
Figured out how to put up an image yet? If not, post where you are running in to problems. I wont bite your head off. Like i said before, im just here to help, and learn. :)
Die CMC Mag!!!
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 11:51 |
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@ Maxburn hi:)
your on a loser buddy, they are trying to convince themselves they are right, not you. so therefore you can't win
god this thread is getting hard to read with all this sideways scrolling
@ Blighter hi :)
could you reduce the size of your pics please. that should return things to normal
 gif by ireland
we cant help if you wont help yourself |
Moderator
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13. December 2005 @ 12:08 |
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exactly. it's just like the minority who get defensive about bad media, they try to force it down the throats of the majority. i and may others are here to help ppl burn, and burn consistently. but hang on a minute i said this once already!. i'm not biting though :)
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. December 2005 @ 12:08 |
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@gurnard
I agree this thread is getting nowhere, it is like beating a dead horse. Not everyone has, or can afford, a quality burner that can do 16x so it is safer to burn at the lower speed. If people want to burn at that speed and have no problems fine, if they don't fine. Why are we calling those that do burn at 4x morons or idiots, everyone is entitled to their own personal preferences. My two cents.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 12:09
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smsmike
Member
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13. December 2005 @ 14:22 |
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Maxburn says (in part) Quote:
Make your point with cold hard facts, not a lot of words.
The problem with the facts that are posted here is that they only apply to one persons computer and one persons DVD Burner. Hell, Maxburn, I can test a disk that I have burned with DVD Burner (A) then do a max quality test on 4 other burners, and get FOUR different sets of results.
The main problem with those tests is that you're testing your Drives Ability To Read The Disk as well as the quality of the disk itself. So every test result that's posted here is relevant only to the drive that did the test. It may or may not be an indicator of how well the disk will actually play on someone's stand alone DVD Player.[/bold/
Granted, the fewer the errors the better, but a stand alone player will tolerate a LOT of errors and you will never see so much as a blink on your screen. Try testing an older rented DVD sometime. The quality SUCKS but the darn thing still plays like a champ.
Personally, I use "Read Error Tests" as my indicator. If three or more of my drives can read the entire disk without a single read error, I have a disk that will play on any DVD player that has the Firmware for the disk type I recorded the movie on. That test has never failed me yet - and keep in mind that I use Inkjet Printed Paper Labels on all my disks. I print the labels, then apply them before I burn the disks at 16x. (Large Grin)
Maxburn I don't mind the lecture you gave me on using insulting words and phrases. Hell man, I spent 26 years in the U.S. Air Force - what I posted here wouldn't even raise an eyebrow in Military Circles. Insults are what keep things moving along in good order! I sometimes forget that civilians have very thin "Politically Correct" skin.. (Large Grin)
- Mike -
I stopped counting when I reached 60!
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 17:03 |
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@smsmike
Hey no problems. I served 6 years in the USAF too. You were in longer, so i can see you forgetting we are in a civilian forum, and now i am a civilian too. Being politically correct sucks sometimes, but it allows us to carry on an argument without getting in to emotions. Yes, a truely scientific test would be conducted under controled conditions in some lab, mabey even involving monkeys.. :) , But this is the real world, and most of the post in these forums i have seen have been about fixing ppls problems, not pushing the burn speed envelope. There are other websites with other types of audiences. So with the AD kind of audience in mind, saying doing less than a 16x burn is dumb, is kind of insulting to your large audience here. Ok, i like you smsmike, even though you try to be a thorn. As i said before, insults, even implied ones don't really bother me at all, so i didnt try to take anything you said personally. Remember also, we have kids reading this forum, so we have to try to keep it clean for their sake (not that kids haven't heard it all before, and could probably teach us old farts a few new slams)
Quote:
The main problem with those tests is that you're testing your Drives Ability To Read The Disk as well as the quality of the disk itself. So every test result that's posted here is relevant only to the drive that did the test.
Yes, that's true, but what you are really saying is you wont do the test on your system, and post the results? Sounds like it to me. I know your other tests "Read Error Test" probably works fine for you. I could have "cherry picked" my test results, but you got what i showed, with no repeat runs, or multiple drive runs. I tried to keep this test as fair/unbiased, and honest as i could. Changing only what i stated. Yeah, i could have cheated, but i didn't. You brought up some good points, but in the end, you want to back down from posting your own scans claiming such test are meaningless. You now know how to post images. You want us to take a walk on the wild side, and you wont even take a walk on the mild side. You've probably heard this term before, and i say it only with the intention you just mentioned Quote:
Insults are what keep things moving along in good order!
Sort of to get things rolling, right? ChickenS**t! (very large grin here) :)
Die CMC Mag!!!
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. December 2005 @ 17:08 |
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Quote:
what I posted here wouldn't even raise an eyebrow in Military Circles. Insults are what keep things moving along in good order! I sometimes forget that civilians have very thin "Politically Correct" skin..
My son has spent 16 years in the Coast Guard I am sure that when George W. Bush visited his group in Mobile, that calling GW a moron and an idiot would have really kept things moving along in good order.
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 17:43 |
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Hi there arniebear :)
I like the new bear you have. Fits the season.
Die CMC Mag!!!
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. December 2005 @ 18:07 |
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Quote:
So with the AD kind of audience in mind, saying doing less than a 16x burn is dumb, is kind of insulting to your large audience here.
You brought up some good points, but in the end, you want to back down from posting your own scans claiming such test are meaningless.
You now know how to post images. You want us to take a walk on the wild side, and you wont even take a walk on the mild side.
You've probably heard this term before, and i say it only with the intention you just mentioned
@Maxburn
I totally agree with you buddy -- I coudn't have said any better.
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smsmike
Member
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13. December 2005 @ 18:39 |
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Maxburn said (in part) Quote:
You brought up some good points, but in the end, you want to back down from posting your own scans claiming such test are meaningless. You now know how to post images. You want us to take a walk on the wild side, and you wont even take a walk on the mild side. You've probably heard this term before, and i say it only with the intention you just mentioned
I posted this twice before, but maybe someone will read it and understand it this time My OEM Version of Nero 6 does NOT HAVE the same test program you people are using. What it has tests for read errors only. It was designed for CD's and modified to include some tests for DVD's. It's not even the same screen you are using. I have used your version on my neighbors computer, so I know what it tests for and how it works, but I do NOT have that program on either of my computers.
Now, having said that, I can certainly go up on the Nero site and BUY the full version of Nero 6 if you must see those test results. I have not done so because my OEM version, plus "Nero Digital Pro" (which I bought as a stand alone program) are all I really need. If I can buy "Nero Tools" as a stand alone package, I will give that a shot. I'll let you know.
Guys, I fear NOTHING when it comes to computer programs. If I HAVE the tools, I use them!
By the way, is it just my computer, or is every post missing the Word Wrap markers today?
- Mike -
I stopped counting when I reached 60!
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