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Toshiba set to launch Blu-ray killer DVD technology
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 30 May, 2008
Citing Toshiba sources, the "Yomiuri Shimbun" newspaper has reported that Toshiba is set to launch a "Blu-ray killing" technology later this year.
The technology, which will be an "extension to the DVD format" will offer comparable video quality to that of current Blu-ray titles and now defunct HD DVD discs. The sources cited even said that the company will begin offering DVD players ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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31. May 2008 @ 12:28 |
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The 1T BR disc wont be seen in the consumer market under 50 a disc for 6+ years nd in the time frame a HDD will be cheaper...
BR is now being shaped by market demand instead of sonys quirky interests sp BR is improving across the board, the more vendors to build players the more features we will see and better prices.
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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31. May 2008 @ 12:43 |
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I don't understand why there even a issue with BD+ or any copy protection as they haven't had any effects on any players.Like i said there was two BD+ disc(The Day After Tomorrow& Fantastic Four:Rise Of The Silver) that had issue which was fixed within a week of its release with firmware updates.There are over 100 BD+ disc that has been released since then with no issue what so ever.
What don't make any sense is DVD,BD,& HD-DVD had copy protection why is it a issue now when BD has been clearly the choice of customers.All these company's back copy protection live with it, it isn't going anywhere so get over it or don't buy the product you have a choice as a customer.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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31. May 2008 @ 12:49 |
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Originally posted by NexGen76:
I don't understand why there even a issue with BD+ or any copy protection as they haven't had any effects on any players.Like i said there was two BD+ disc(The Day After Tomorrow& Fantastic Four:Rise Of The Silver) that had issue which was fixed within a week of its release with firmware updates.There are over 100 BD+ disc that has been released since then with no issue what so ever.
What don't make any sense is DVD,BD,& HD-DVD had copy protection why is it a issue now when BD has been clearly the choice of customers.All these company's back copy protection live with it, it isn't going anywhere so get over it or don't buy the product you have a choice as a customer.
rolling black outs with the live key system, BD+ is different than most because of the live key system that tries to track media to player and lock it out of enabled players when there is an issue, we already seen what small scale screw ups on BD+ can do.
However sony has sold it off and I doubt macro vision will implement some of things sony was going to do.
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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redux79
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31. May 2008 @ 14:17 |
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First and foremost blu-ray is still a work in progress, it?s not finalized and there is no indication of if or when it will be. The difference inherent to the only hd format left (blu-ray) is that the player itself plays an active roll in checking and possibly implementing new/changing drm. Not only are the discs encrypted but the players can be updated to coincide with new drm. It simply creates too many unknowns and widens the possibility for future playback issues.
When a dvd is released the encryption on the disc can not change and gives company's like slysoft and fentago time to work with any changes made since previous releases. With blu-ray the player has an active roll in checking drm and in a sense gives the studios a second chance to detect any unauthorized "pirated discs" from playing and the ability to really stick it to you by bricking your player.
When you buy an sd dvd player it comes as is and might have optional firmware updates to fix possible glitches or problems. the only encryption is on the dvd itself. Now that standard dvd encryption is effectively useless the BDA is going overboard bringing drm to new heights and involving the player in the process. These new tactics only raise the chances for something to go wrong.
The more I think about these things the less enthusiastic I am to drop a couple hundred on a new player and format that doesn't have a very clear future. People like me who take these things into consideration are much more enthusiastic about super-upconversion. However the vast majority of consumers don't know or care to know how things work and are waiting for price drops. The future of blu-ray really depends on how quickly prices come down. Toshibas so called "blu-ray killer" if successful will most likely help with blu-ray adoption by forcing prices down.
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ematrix
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31. May 2008 @ 15:11 |
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First of all, Blu-ray is NOT the choice of customers, it doesn't matter how many times people says this, it doesn't change the indeniable fact that more than 95% of consumers worldwide are preferring DVD, people are buying more upscaled DVD players and much more DVD movies, than BD players and movies. Blu-ray was imposed by the BDA and movie studios, regardles that a large percentage of early adopters preferred HD-DVD.
Toshiba was forced to abandon HD-DVD, yet they had developed this new super upconversion technology much prior to that, but it doesn't mean they should abandon that as well, when they are addressing that very large percentage of consumers that are preferring DVD, in providing better equipment to improve their viewing experience.
Does this justify desregarding what Toshiba is doing? NO. Why should they settle for the tuna when they go after the big shark? Is there something wrong with that? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm sure that the large population of consumers that are preffering DVD, will welcome these new super upconversion DVD players.
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31. May 2008 @ 15:37 |
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Originally posted by ematrix:
First of all, Blu-ray is NOT the choice of customers, it doesn't matter how many times people says this, it doesn't change the indeniable fact that more than 95% of consumers worldwide are preferring DVD, people are buying more upscaled DVD players and much more DVD movies, than BD players and movies. Blu-ray was imposed by the BDA and movie studios, regardles that a large percentage of early adopters preferred HD-DVD.
Toshiba was forced to abandon HD-DVD, yet they had developed this new super upconversion technology much prior to that, but it doesn't mean they should abandon that as well, when they are addressing that very large percentage of consumers that are preferring DVD, in providing better equipment to improve their viewing experience.
Does this justify desregarding what Toshiba is doing? NO. Why should they settle for the tuna when they go after the big shark? Is there something wrong with that? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm sure that the large population of consumers that are preffering DVD, will welcome these new super upconversion DVD players.
See this is were that logic is totally flawed.Look at the sales numbers from Dec 06 to Jan 08 Blu-Ray clearly outsold HD-DVD thats a fact not opinion the customer has spoken that they wanted Blu-Ray weather i like it or not thats the facts so lets move on.HD-DVD wasn't force to abandon they had no choice but to close there door when movie studios seen the heavy sells numbers in favor for Blu-Ray.
Originally posted by redux79:
First and foremost blu-ray is still a work in progress, it?s not finalized and there is no indication of if or when it will be. The difference inherent to the only hd format left (blu-ray) is that the player itself plays an active roll in checking and possibly implementing new/changing drm. Not only are the discs encrypted but the players can be updated to coincide with new drm. It simply creates too many unknowns and widens the possibility for future playback issues.
When a dvd is released the encryption on the disc can not change and gives company's like slysoft and fentago time to work with any changes made since previous releases. With blu-ray the player has an active roll in checking drm and in a sense gives the studios a second chance to detect any unauthorized "pirated discs" from playing and the ability to really stick it to you by bricking your player.
You stating something that was never confirmed but was brought up that they say could happen if they wanted to happen.But if your buying movies & using as there intended purpose there should be no issues.You guys live in fear to much.There not a chance in hell that they will Brick someone player because they think your using pirated discs.Thats the excuse made up by pirates that trying to curve the system.Lets deal with facts on this that we know now not conspiracy theories.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. May 2008 @ 15:43
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ematrix
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31. May 2008 @ 17:00 |
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Your prior statement was "What don't make any sense is DVD,BD,& HD-DVD had copy protection why is it a issue now when BD has been clearly the choice of customers." and when you make such a claim in context against DVD, is when such statement is totally flawed, as sales figures show that people still are buying far more DVD movies and upscaling DVD players than BD movies and players.
I said "Toshiba was forced to abandon HD-DVD", not that HD-DVD was forced to abandon... What do you say when you have no choice but to do something against your own wishes? YOU WERE FORCED TO DO SO!
I'm not going to repeat what nobrainer and redux79 have expressed, but they do make valid statements. We are facing times where goverments (such as France and England) and private associations (fill the blanks on your most disliked __AA) wants to police, control and monitor everything we do, at expenses of our consumer and private rights, and that's worth worrying about, but not to state that we live in fear too much.
It looks more like BD early adopters are the ones living in fear too much, when they're so eager to desregard a new super upconversion DVD player, that could appeal more to that large percentage of consumers that are preferring DVD, or that in a couple of years could arrise a new format, that could be much more preferred by consumers worldwide, rather than embrasing Blu-ray, reducing its chances of succesfully becaming mainstream.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. May 2008 @ 17:17
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Senior Member
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31. May 2008 @ 17:38 |
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Originally posted by ematrix:
It looks more like BD early adopters are the ones living in fear too much, when they're so eager to desregard a new super upconversion DVD player, that could appeal more to that large percentage of consumers that are preferring DVD, or that in a couple of years could arrise a new format, that could be much more preferred by consumers worldwide, rather than embrasing Blu-ray, reducing its chances of succesfully becaming mainstream.
I am not worried at all. Like I have expressed many times, if a new format comes along and I am not ready to buy a player, I would strip that movie apart and take the steps neccessary to re-author it to a Blu-ray disc, just like I do with HD-DVD's (HD-DVD--->Blu-ray).
Upconversion has nothing on true 1080p encodes. Regardless of what anyone says. How can a regular DVD possibly be as good as a Blu-ray disc??
1) Blu-ray discs allow for far greater bitrates due to higher capacity and faster transfer rate.
2) AVC/h264 and VC-1 are far more efficient than MPEG2.
3) The pixels are already there (on Blu-ray discs). How can something artificially created via super upconversion compete with something that already has that amount of detail in the first place?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. May 2008 @ 17:39
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31. May 2008 @ 18:08 |
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Originally posted by ematrix:
Your prior statement was "What don't make any sense is DVD,BD,& HD-DVD had copy protection why is it a issue now when BD has been clearly the choice of customers." and when you make such a claim in context against DVD, is when such statement is totally flawed, as sales figures show that people still are buying far more DVD movies and upscaling DVD players than BD movies and players.
Thats why it don't make sense because
1.You cant compare DVD to Blu-Ray when DVD has been on the market far longer that Blu-Ray.Your trying to compare something that has a mass market to a format that still in its early stages.
2.The reason these movie studios are movie toward HD media is DVD sales has been in decline for the last year or to.
2007: DVD sales decline
http://4thefirsttime.blogspot.com/2007/1...es-decline.html
DVD-ISASTER SALES
HOME VIDEO REVENUE STEADILY PLUMMETING
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12042007/bus...ales_806649.htm
Originally posted by ematrix:
I said "Toshiba was forced to abandon HD-DVD", not that HD-DVD was forced to abandon... What do you say when you have no choice but to do something against your own wishes? YOU WERE FORCED TO DO SO!
So if i make a product & it get out sold by a company thats making a better product & sale more than me i have no choice but to abandon my product if my sells can't cover my operation cost i wasn't forced to close my doors it the fact that the other company has a product that customer prefer over minds & that called business it happens everyday in this world.
Originally posted by ematrix:
It looks more like BD early adopters are the ones living in fear too much, when they're so eager to desregard a new super upconversion DVD player, that could appeal more to that large percentage of consumers that are preferring DVD, or that in a couple of years could arrise a new format, that could be much more preferred by consumers worldwide, rather than embrasing Blu-ray, reducing its chances of succesfully becaming mainstream.
There nothing to fear because this player can't improve if the source is still the same as DVD.This is a upgrade over upscale dvd players not a upgrade over Blu-Ray or HD-DVD players.
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SDF_GR
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31. May 2008 @ 18:48 |
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No one have mentioned anything about the Audio that a BD Disc can offer and a BD player can output, and the audio that DVD's with this toshiba upscalers will offer.
BD is out for less than 2years and movie prices is under 30euros when DVD's after 10 years costs around 20 with lower Audio+Video quality, and a fully scratchable discs.
I went today to mediamarkt and all the new BD releases were at 29.95euros, when DVD's were at 19.95E the New releases and at 10,95E the older once.
So i dont think that BD can get lower than that.
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ematrix
Junior Member
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31. May 2008 @ 18:55 |
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First you don't need to repurchase movies you already own on DVD. You may say that nobody is forcing you to repurchase movies on BD, but then what is the point in getting a BD player, if you're not going to readquire movies on BD that you already have in DVD.
Also it's not mandatory to upgrade your equipment (TV set, HT sound system) in order to view DVD movies. You can choose to upgrade for a LCD/Plasma screen and super upconversion DVD player to improve picture into HD standarts... may be artificial, but it sure looks damn cool, as showed on Toshiba's presentation months ago.
The fact remains that the vast mayority of legit consumers don't care about Blu-ray, they are very content with DVD and are reluctant to such ordeal, also consider that legit consumers represent 1/10 of the DVD's user population, since the rest gets pirate copies or P2P downloads, most of the time of movies just released in movie theaters with inferior quality than DVD... then BD's market penetration is practically non-existent.
If you believe this isn't enough, then you should have nothing to worry about, you can stick with BD while the rest of us keep with DVD, and welcome Toshiba's super upconversion DVD, at least until something much better than BD comes along, certanly any new format that doesn't involve optical discs will be a much better option and a new revolution in home video entertaiment, and that will be worth spending our money.
Don't blind yourself just to defend BD, from the undeniable fact that Hollywood has been producing a lot of new crappy movies, and releasing less blockbuster favorite movies and TV shows on DVD in the past years, that certanly can account for that 4% decline in DVD movie sales last year, as it was forecasted by analysts back at late 2005... frankly it could have been worse.
In the contrary all those big blockbuster favorite movies and TV shows, where released at least 3-4 years ago, when DVD movie sales where at their highest. But if DVD sales have declined such low percentage, regardless of less appealing titles to buy, it could mean that more consumers are buying than before, but everybody has been more selective in which titles are worth adquiring.
The real reason why movie studios are pushing for BD, rather than actually making good movies worth watching and buying, is because they want to profit from selling all those 80's and 90's big blockbuster favorites AGAIN!
If you think that i shouldn't compare DVD to Blu-Ray when DVD has a mass market, and Blu-Ray is still on its early stages, then you shouldn't made the claim that BD is the preferred choice of costumers when it's not, specially in context against DVD.
It's absurd to say that Blu-ray is better than HD-DVD, the fact is that Blu-ray beat HD-DVD thanks mainly to the PS3 rootkit, and at the end to exclusive movie studio support, not because it was superior. The fact is that HD-DVD had full specs when Blu-ray was still on Profile 1.0, and BD players with Profile 2.0 (which will match HD-DVD's full specs) are just to be released in the following months... so when was Blu-ray superior in order to beat HD-DVD?
It's kind of ironic... months ago Sony sold their Cell's factory to Toshiba, but rather than providing Sony of processors for the PS3, they will use them for their new super upconversion DVD players and TV sets (so now Sony depends of IBM for its processors needs)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. May 2008 @ 20:51
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ozdavo
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31. May 2008 @ 19:06 |
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Originally posted by ematrix:
Toshiba's Super Upconversion uses Cell's processors to produce in real-time a 960p true HD image (1920x960).
Their talking low cost (assumption here is sub$200 and you think they will put a cell processor in? I'd like to see that!
Does it really matter anyway, when sub$200 bluray 2.0 players will be available by probably mid '09 with the chinese manufacture's coming into the market.
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drach
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31. May 2008 @ 21:35 |
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Quote:
I give these blu disks 3 years until they are as extinct as the minidisk...
I think Blu-ray is a little better established than minidisk ever was.
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dblbogey7
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31. May 2008 @ 23:09 |
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Originally posted by eatsushi:
It would be interesting to see how they implement Super-Resolution technology.
I'm also interested in seeing how they'll make this work. Your links were also very informative BTW. I guess a Cell-based system could do it but considering the fact that your source is a regular DVD with MPEG2 compression I have my doubts, so to speak.
Consider the fact that with MPEG 2 compression, only 1 out of every 15 frames or so of the original video master is stored (the intra-coded or I-frame). The other frames called the P and B frames sort of explain the changes in between frames.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2
So 14 out of 15 frames are only referencing each other to save space. With these types of frames I really don't see how looking forward and back 9 frames can get the results that Super Resolution aspire to.
The only way I can see this working well is if you start out with raw uncompressed data maybe like digital videocam footage. A 3 Mbps MPEG2 compressed video in DVD format makes one doubtful about the results.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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blueroad
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1. June 2008 @ 02:39 |
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i hope you wont hang me for saying this but i just love these discussions..amazing what you can learn from the comments people make.. just wanted to thank everyone :)
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nobrainer
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1. June 2008 @ 08:42 |
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I just hope that this toshiba's offering will be pro consumer, as with the phone home ability that fox has already stated that they will utilise with blu-ray, and laws like the new "Controversial intellectual property treaty being drafted in secret" becoming the norm thanks to the MPAA/RIAA i fear that even a home movie will get your door kicked in by the FBI and your home confiscated and yourself locked behind bars simply because you wanted to play a film or an mp3 on another bit of your equipment.
come on toshiba, lets get a pro consumer, none privacy violating, next step media player on the shelves without the need for constant tracking by the MPAA.
House passes bill that will let the RIAA take away your home for downloading music
add this to the fact that the RIAA thinks that doing what you want with your own content is stealing....
Sony BMG's chief anti-piracy lawyer: "Copying" music you own is "stealing"
Originally posted by hyper:
Pariser replied, "When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song." Making "a copy" of a purchased song is just "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy'," she said.
iPod tax: UK music biz open to format shifting... for a fee Quote:
the BPI again said all the right things about format shifting, but we noted that the Association of Independent Music was making noises; apparently, the group wanted to get paid whenever music was transferred from a CD to a portable device.
Controversial intellectual property treaty being drafted in secret Quote:
The treaty, as outlined in the leaked document, would mandate authority for customs agents to examine portable devices from laptops to iPods for evidence of either P2P file sharing activity or copied content from media including CDs and DVDs that could constitute copyright infringement. They would then have the ability to seize such property without any judicial oversight, and even levy fines to "offenders."
and the phone home ability of blu-ray is.............. thanks MPAA/RIAA for this proposed law, you really do care about letting the consumers have choice with their own media, its the YOU ARE GUILTY measure me thinks, i think i really will just stick with dvd and if toshiba can offer something between the two formats without tracking our every move i can see it being the next format of media players. the MPAA should have never been allowed to dictate to us all hardware restrictions but this is the world of capitalism, and all we can do is boycott anti-consumer.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. June 2008 @ 08:46
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juankerr
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1. June 2008 @ 17:41 |
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If the DVD Forum gets its way, the "phone home" feature will not be limited to BluRay:
Behold - DVD 2.0 and Network Connectivity
Quote:
At the same meeting, according to a summary posted on the Forum Web site, the committee approved the formation of a new working group (dubbed WG-12) ?to study and specify network applications and related network specification of DVD Forum formats, make recommendations for better interoperability and functionality of network-connected DVD Forum specified devices and content and communicate on relevant recommendations with other standard creation organizations.?
What that means in non-Forum legalese, I?m told by sources familiar with the plans, is that the new working group will look for ways to incorporate some of the same next-gen functionality developed for HD DVD into a DVD 2.0 format, including the HDi interactive layer and the advanced network connectivity.
One of the co-chairs of WG-12 is Microsoft, which played a major role in developing those capabilities for HD DVD (the other co-chair is Panasonic).
Toshiba and Microsoft are also working through the DVD Copy Control Assn., which oversees the CSS encryption format used on standard DVDs, to try to breathe new life into the old format.
Microsoft was behind a proposal to DVD-CCA?originally floated two years ago but revived in modified form late last year?to introduce ?managed-copy? to standard DVDs, under which consumers would be able to copy their DVDs to a hard drive under carefully DRM?ed conditions, for streaming over a home network.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. June 2008 @ 17:45
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peac3
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1. June 2008 @ 21:14 |
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Imagine a world where Blu-ray has totally won. There is no other player, no other disc format.
Thanks to profile 2.0 and its online updating feature it is impossible to view backups, only original BDs.
Now that there is no competition and all people are depending on this format - will the price for BD movies go up or down? Think of the gas prices.
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juankerr
Member
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1. June 2008 @ 22:08 |
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Originally posted by peac3:
Imagine a world where Blu-ray has totally won. There is no other player, no other disc format.
Thanks to profile 2.0 and its online updating feature it is impossible to view backups, only original BDs.
Now that there is no competition and all people are depending on this format - will the price for BD movies go up or down? Think of the gas prices.
I think we addressed these concerns a couple of pages back:
1. DRM and BD+ Copy protection - ineffective and a non-factor thanks to Slysoft. Just refer to Ryu77's comprehensive guide for updates:
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/639346
2. Prices of BD movies. There's always a sale going on if you know where to look. Here's the avsforums thread on discounts, bargains and ongoing sales:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=976789
I think right now there's a few sales going on including amazon, Circuit City (3 for 2), Walmart ($15 titles), and the Warner home video website. You never need to pay MSRP for any BluRay disc.
3. Prices of players. With the recently announced approval of Chinese manufacturers we should see inexpensive (maybe sub-$200) entry-level players by next year with across-the-board price drops likely.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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1. June 2008 @ 22:16 |
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Originally posted by peac3:
Imagine a world where Blu-ray has totally won. There is no other player, no other disc format.
Thanks to profile 2.0 and its online updating feature it is impossible to view backups, only original BDs.
Now that there is no competition and all people are depending on this format - will the price for BD movies go up or down? Think of the gas prices.
thats only half right as the DRM makes easy backing up harder without reseting the DRM, however BR is shifting from a new overly protected format to a more open mainstream one.
Still will be interesting if/when the wide spread bricking of BR films happens but other than that its the status quo of they will build it and we will use it any Gdamn way we want.
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AfterDawn Addict
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1. June 2008 @ 23:14 |
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Why do threads like this always end up it total conflict? The bottom line is, more options for the consumer = lower prices for everything. I could spend an hour writing how I feel about BD+ and the like, but in all honesty, why? Been there, done that....100 times over. Toshiba's latest foray into the HD market may be futile, but hey, at least it gives us options. Until all this fuss is resolved, I will happily use my upscaling dvd player :)
@whoever decided to give nobrainer a vacation, what would you like for Christmas?
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varnull
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1. June 2008 @ 23:27 |
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I'm with you here stang.. I'm past caring. I don't want this technology because I don't have any "phone home" crap in my house.. It's bad enough being spied on every time I leave the house.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. June 2008 @ 00:13
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AfterDawn Addict
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1. June 2008 @ 23:59 |
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Originally posted by varnull:
I'm with you here stang.. I'm past caring. I don't want this technology because I don't have any "phone home" crap in my house.. It's bad enough being spied on every time I leave the house.
Don't plug the player into the net then :P
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. June 2008 @ 00:13
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Member
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2. June 2008 @ 01:11 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by varnull:
I'm with you here stang.. I'm past caring. I don't want this technology because I don't have any "phone home" crap in my house.. It's bad enough being spied on every time I leave the house.
Don't plug the player into the net then :P
Or better yet don't buy it.........
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AfterDawn Addict
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2. June 2008 @ 01:14 |
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by varnull:
I'm with you here stang.. I'm past caring. I don't want this technology because I don't have any "phone home" crap in my house.. It's bad enough being spied on every time I leave the house.
Don't plug the player into the net then :P
Or better yet don't buy it.........
So everyone should boycott BR because they are trying(and failing) to create a net enabled DRm for film?
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