Sony has been sued this week in California over its recent firmware update that removed the "OtherOS" feature of the PlayStation 3, a feature that had allowed for the installation of Linux on an HDD partition.
The firmware update, version 3.21, was released last month.
The case was brought by Anthony Ventura who is claiming that the update is an "intentional disamblement of the valuable ... [ read the full article ]
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The question is, where do you get in? It's a 'class action,' so where does everybody else join? I doubt a monetary settlement, but if this wins with a lot of people in it, I bet the feature will be back in some form or another.
Originally posted by biglo30: Who gives that one person the right to sue for me? I don't mind that the feature is gone but if you trying to collect all the money one all of the owner around that time I think that we all will be expecting a cut of that evenly!
Maybe a check for 10 cents? I remember getting those from Metlife's sues and Reward card sues...
Originally posted by brockie:Sony can add or take away what they want read the small print.
lol would be pretty funny if your right and he missed it. though i doubt it
Terms and conditions are never finite - they can be ruled unreasonable - if you advertise a feature and say in the advertising that it can be removed that is one thing - but if you bury it in small print then courts may well rule the T&C to be unfair. Its like the "we are not responsible to damage caused to vehicles in our care" you see in many garages - the reality is that most courts would overrule that if they held that the garage was negiligent.
However Sony and the big corporations seem to feel that they can do anything they like to secure their copyright - but morally they do not. The can use the laws that are there but at the moment they are persuading governments to rewrite laws to protect them more - by the same token we should be arguing for laws to protect consumers from being charged more than things are really worth.
To the person who said they didnt care about it being taken away that is fine but what if they decided that to sell more blue ray players they would take away the blue ray codecs - its the same principle involved, some people who only want it as a games machine wouldnt care but others would feel cheated - and rightly so.
There should be an indepenedent consumer council that companies are forced to support but have no control over who can rule against companies where they behave unfairly - bring back ethical behaviour into business
Originally posted by Cereberal: Putting out a patch to remove the OtherOS will not make it harder to pirate games on the PS3. They would have not put that option in there on the first place.
You cannot say/confirm that with unequivocal proof. Until it happens IF it ever does then we will know but anything about this one way or the other is conjecture and opinion at best.
Originally posted by Cereberal: The counterpoint to Sony can take anything they want in fine print. They basically came in without the owner's permission and removed a function from the device. It wasn't until people reboot their consoles did they find out what had happened.
Absolutely False. Please get your "facts" correct before stating/claiming false information like that. It states TWICE (with double confirmations) that you WILL LOSE OtherOS with this update that is optional PLUS if you read the terms of agreement it explains it there as well. Simply put ~ you update you lose Other OS you don't you lose PSN etc.
Originally posted by Cereberal: This would end up being a successful class action suit and Sony would either settle out of court and pay lots of money and never reverse the patch.
That is all opinion, possibility and not fact. I agree that if it were to get to a point where Sony had to choose that they would do as you described but I think the TOA that have been set in place (and not JUST for this specific update) will actually cover them as it's not Sony's fault if people don't READ what they agree to or take the time to research what is going on.
Originally posted by glassd:
Originally posted by hendrix04:
Originally posted by Tecbot:
Originally posted by DXR88:
Originally posted by Josipher:
Originally posted by brockie: Sony can add or take away what they want read the small print.
lol would be pretty funny if your right and he missed it. though i doubt it
you did miss it its on the back of the box.
it is in the terms of service im pretty sure ive seen it quoted before this was ever a issue with other updates...hope this idot loses money over this who cares about the other os anyway i had it but would never use it in my lifetime anyway.
The thousands of people that have clusters of PS3s doing research care about this. I know for a fact that there are parts of the US government that use PS3s to do number crunching because they are more efficient and cheaper than buying a PC.
Those thousands of people/goverment/research centers that are using the PS3 for clusters are not playing PSN games online and do not need to accept the update to remove OS. They did not loose anything.
Glassd is actually 100% correct this does NOT affect people with clusters since they use their PS3 for the specific use and they don't need this update for anything. If they are getting dual use out of their PS3's (which is HIGHLY unlikely when running MULTIPLE clusters) then it would, but people who are using PS3 in a research application use them as they are intended for purchase. NOT as a gaming machine where/how/who this update actually affects.
Originally posted by davidike: is anyone else getting rather pi**ed off with corporations saying "do as we say" for a product WE purchased, if they gave it us for free they can dictate what we do, but they should have no right to dictate to us what we do with a product we have purchased outright.
Sorry folks but removing features & bundling DRM is sony's motto. imagine if you could play free games made by the community on the PS3, you'd be distracted from purchasing those overpriced, over-hyped titles that sony collects all them lovely royalties from, imagine if something like elite or populous was made to run on the PS3 by the community & given away for FREE omg, its sony's worst nightmare.
check out the link in my sig.
Sorry but I believe your misguided in your anger. Sony is taking steps to protect their product. This cannot be denied. To put it simply if Geohot did not do what he did then everything would have stayed the same. PERIOD. Your anger should be directed at him first and foremost with fervor THEN secondly with Sony.
I read this comment yesterday and when you think about it this way it makes a lot of sense ~ Lets say you buy a brand new car with optional features like heated seats, navigation & keyless alarm/startup etc. then 3 years later a bulletin about a deficiency/vulnerability with in the keyless alarm/startup feature that CAN POSSIBLY allow a criminal to steal your car easily...so you get a notice in the mail and it states there is an issue that can be addressed/fixed but this is totally optional to do but if you don't do it your car has the possibility of being exploited. And if you don't do the optional fix/upgrade then you cannot sue the parent company if your vehicle at sometime becomes compromised at any later time.
Kind of a rough simile but for the most part it gets the point across.
Originally posted by KillerBug: It is highly doubtful that the GeoHot hack would ever lead to piracy. I thought it would at first, but after some research, it became clear that PS3 linux would not lead to anything piracy-related...a custom FW could in theory...but there was no CFW in the works until sony removed linux. Even if it could, the damage is already done; GeoHot already got an image of the rom anyway...so it isn't like blocking linux will prevent it from being distributed across the net.
Yes and No. Yes the damage is done but No because Sony is doing what they can to LIMIT the chances of losses to their best ability at this time by decreasing the overall number of people with a "hackable/exploitable" firmware. Mind you this is not a simple PSP type flash with software and poof your PS3 is exploited...you need a SERIOUS amount of technical ability to solder, wire, mod, decipher, digram & add PHYSICAL hardware just to get to where Geohot is at right now! Which...is...actually...nowhere particularly "special" currently because nothing has really been shown other than a video of him running FW 3.21 with OtherOS still intact but nothing nowhere near a CFW. Now that doesn't mean he is not doing his best or trying out different things but it's a "wait and see" game now as it has been for the last 4+ years with the PS3's protection(s).
To finish this whole thesis up I will add how I feel about this ~ YES I AM PISSED that a product I bought with said feature has been removed and feel it is a violation BUT since I have 3 PS3's I will simply keep 1 of them @ FW 3.15 packed away nicely as a "just in case" while my 2 others will stay up to date...No. Big. Deal. Plus 1 of them really doesn't matter anyway since it's a Slim. But I honestly hold Geohot more accountable for the totality of this situation more than anything because as I described earlier ~ if he didn't do what he did then OtherOS would still be here. And NOBODY can refute that no matter what their opinion on the matter.
Originally posted by Oner: I read this comment yesterday and when you think about it this way it makes a lot of sense ~ Lets say you buy a brand new car with optional features like heated seats, navigation & keyless alarm/startup etc. then 3 years later a bulletin about a deficiency/vulnerability with in the keyless alarm/startup feature that CAN POSSIBLY allow a criminal to steal your car easily...so you get a notice in the mail and it states there is an issue that can be addressed/fixed but this is totally optional to do but if you don't do it your car has the possibility of being exploited. And if you don't do the optional fix/upgrade then you cannot sue the parent company if your vehicle at sometime becomes compromised at any later time.
Kind of a rough simile but for the most part it gets the point across.
I get what else you're saying, but I have to disagree with this. They are making it optional, but they are forcing you to choose between different feature sets. Now, you must decide to lose your keyless entry or to lose your satellite radio, ability to play new CDs, etc. While not losing the keyless entry would make your vehicle physically vulnerable to theft, having the OtherOS feature available is not leaving your PS3 vulnerable to attacks. It's leaving it open for possible user hacks that Sony is vulnerable to by way of pirating or whatever the floodgates let in. It's not so much the accountability of Sony, it's about choosing between two feature sets. One from which you can't go back. Leaving the OtherOS in will not change anything for the end-user. Any vulnerabilities it might have would have to be intelligently and physically exploited by someone who knows exactly what they're doing. As you said "you need a SERIOUS amount of technical ability to solder, wire & add PHYSICAL hardware just to get to where Geohot is at right now." I have never hear of anyone breaking into a house and installing hacked software before...
Like I said, I get what else you're saying, but I have to disagree with this analogy.
Originally posted by WierdName: ...Like I said, I get what else you're saying, but I have to disagree with this analogy.
Analogy's can be hard to make "exact" which is why they are used to help describe something of similarity but specifically to help with a point/comment/view in over view...whether it is poor or inaccurate the overall gist of what I read/said was the main point I was trying to make (not the analogy by itself) as it's just an attempt to make something a little bit clearer or to maybe show a different perspective to others for the situation! :)
Originally posted by WierdName: ...Like I said, I get what else you're saying, but I have to disagree with this analogy.
Analogy's can be hard to make "exact" which is why they are used to help describe something of similarity but specifically to help with a point/comment/view in over view...whether it is poor or inaccurate the overall gist of what I read/said was the main point I was trying to make (not the analogy by itself) as it's just an attempt to make something a little bit clearer or to maybe show a different perspective to others for the situation! :)
I should correct myself. What I meant was the conclusion drawn I must disagree with. It's a bit more than the loss of accountability, but a forced choice between a dead end road with one feature and loosing most others, or the other open road without the ability to turn back. The analogy itself works, as with choosing between the keyless entry and satellite radio. If you don't drop the keyless entry, they stop supplying satellite service for your radio. Whatever the specifics, the point is that one is left with, what I think is, an unfair dilemma.
I not touched my three PS3's since this crud happened. I've missed the entire WarHawk tourny, and have not been able to play High Velocity Bowling. Both are on line only games.
i'm reading some of the post and i think most people are missing the point when they say "I've never used the other os so I don't care about the other os feature so its not a problem if they get rid of it" the issue is not that you don't use the other os its that you could use it but now that choice is gone granted i have a ps3 i installed the other os but since i have 2 pc i uninstalled it because it was not as full featured as a normal pc and there was no growing for that feature because of the device blocking built into the ps3s other os feature
Yes thank you for suing them!! Sony is getting way out of hand i think they should be sued for update after 3.21 for enabling Sony to spy on what you have on your console hard drive! -- I refused to update to 3.30 -- Read the hidden features Sony added that they didn't want anyone to know about! I am so glad someone is taking action i would of if someone didn't setup like a law student!
First they remove the OtherOS -- then Spy on You? Im thinking its time to Sue a Sony!!
THANK YOU!!
Edit: where do i signup because i own a 80gb Fat ps3.
Most users do not see updates as optional - if they were bundled in such a way that you could select which components of the sytsem you want to update then that is fine - Windows do this if you can be bothered to read all the descriptions. However if the update you dont want is bundled with updates that are essential what are you supposed to do.
Oner's long rant is little more than supporting the rights of big companies to protect their business at any cost - even by damaging honest consumer experience. There is nothing wrong in him/her holding that opinion but there is also nothing wrong with challenging what companies do. It simply depends on what your phillosophy of good business is - I dont subscribe to the notion of any kind of success ever being demonstrated by wealth
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There is anothe
Originally posted by WierdName: ...Like I said, I get what else you're saying, but I have to disagree with this analogy.
Analogy's can be hard to make "exact" which is why they are used to help describe something of similarity but specifically to help with a point/comment/view in over view...whether it is poor or inaccurate the overall gist of what I read/said was the main point I was trying to make (not the analogy by itself) as it's just an attempt to make something a little bit clearer or to maybe show a different perspective to others for the situation! :)
I should correct myself. What I meant was the conclusion drawn I must disagree with. It's a bit more than the loss of accountability, but a forced choice between a dead end road with one feature and loosing most others, or the other open road without the ability to turn back. The analogy itself works, as with choosing between the keyless entry and satellite radio. If you don't drop the keyless entry, they stop supplying satellite service for your radio. Whatever the specifics, the point is that one is left with, what I think is, an unfair dilemma.
I disagree with Oner's analogy too. I know you explained that it's not "exact" and you're just trying to make a point but I think it's misleading.
First of all, I don't think disabling the Other OS feature is a "fix". A fix would be if they released a Patch where you keep your Other OS and they patch up the supposed security issue. That's a fix. It could have consequences like for example if you install this fix then your other OS partition will be reformatted and you have to install the other OS again but you get to keep the feature YOU PAID FOR. So this is not in any way a fix, this is just Sony saying "look some dude is playing around with a PS3 and apparently he's smarter than the thousands of engineers we have so instead of doing the right thing to protect our clients and consumers and product, we are just going to screw a bunch of them over and save ourselves the time and money and man power we need to counter what one dude alone is doing out there.
Second of all I don't think it's "optional", optional means you can install it or not but if you don't install it then you agree to being vulnerable which is what you said. But here you can install it or not but if you don't then you can't log on to you PSN account, you can't access the store where you have all the stuff you bought (so if you format your PS3 you can't re-download your stuff), you can't get demos, you can't play online, you can't play new games that require new firmware version. So basically for maybe 90% of the people (who go online) it's practically obligatory and in the future with new games it will be obligatory for 100% of the people. You can't skip 3.21 and just jump to the next FW so your just stuck there. so to me there is no option here.
Finally why do this now? I remember reading some news here when the Slim came out that the Department of Defense or some government entity was going to purchase or purchased like 300 or 500 Fat PS3's to cluster and data crunch. At the time the Fat cost $300 just like the Slim even though it was fatter, bigger, less Energy efficient, old and had less hard drive space. So the only reason you would buy the fat was for the Other OS option (I don't think it was for the backwards compatibility, buy a PS2 and get over yourself or for the 4 USB ports, buy a USB hub or use the one that came with rock band 1 it's under the couch in the basement and get over yourself again or for the memory card reader buy a USB Memory Card reader and once again... yeah get over yourself). So clearly Sony was not happy with this because they lose money or get very little profit with each console they sell and they get the money back by selling games so if you buy a PS3 to cluster then it's a loss loss for Sony. But nowadays nobody buys hundreds of fat PS3's to cluster. They're sold at $450-$500, they're hard to get. The people that bought them with that purpose already installed the Other OS, already set up their cluster and they don't need to update. The Slim doesn't have the option to install Other OS so really there is no need to do that right now. The only thing Sony will achieve is to upset a whole bunch of people. I'm sure 99% of the fat users don't use the feature (I had a fat then changed to Slim when it came out, never used the Other OS) but that doesn't mean you can just take it away and get away with it. I think it's right to sue Sony and I hope Ventura and a whole bunch of people win because Sony is doing the wrong thing, they should really fix it, not avoid it. And if they really don't want to or can't fix it then they should really make it optional so you can enable or disable the feature but you can still go online.
I hope Sony losses and has to bring back the other os I know most people don't use it i don't even use it but Sony advertised it as being able to do this they should not be able to just remove things the PS3 does just because "it could compromise the PS3" or whatever crap there saying what you pay for is what you should get.
Originally posted by evilXion: Nice move from Sony I must say.
1st of all Sony shouldn't had included OtherOS option from the very beginning. I don't see where are the millions of loss in $$$. I doubt there are people out there using their PS3 running Linux during the day as web servers and then to play some games at night. With all this merge of virtualization software I bet there are people out there trying to run PS3 system while on Linux. Which will bring freaking HACKERS to console. Wright now Modern Warfare 2 isn't even playable on PC due to the overwhelming amount of HACKERS using all kinds of cheats.
I support Sony 100% on this move. I don't want to see PS3 to be hacked like PSPs are now. I own a PSP and all the friends I know that own one 99% of them have it hacked. It's true that I only use it to remotely manage my PS3 but mine is 100% legal and with the latest firmware.
MW2 is hacked to hell simply because there are no dedicated servers,there are little to no tools to ban the caught hacker. thus the can get away with it. despite what you think Linux doesn't increase the risk of being hacked.
every major console has hardware based encryption thus without a modchip or some other form of Hardware spoofing, the chance of hacking a console is next to zero.
to hack into something is to gain complete control of the said object and its abilities. the Xbox 360 hasn't been hacked if it where we could unban are selves, we could modify the CPU speed install an OS such as linux to run on the specified equipment.
and so much more.
