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dv in/out issue on Pioneer 5100 HS dvd recorder
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 07:25 |
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Spoke to a dozen people in electrical stores in Tottenham Ct Rd central London today - all suspect driver problems or lack of certain drivers with regard to this issue as Firewire is standard signal - possibly capture software change - still feeling like wasted £600 on this recorder now though as cant get any signal out of it via dv to pc's dv card.
What capture software other than studio 8 are you using?
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studioman
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 07:49 |
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What if we all return our Pioneer 5100 to the retailker and the retailer complains to Pioneer - then something might be done?? I am certain that a firmware upgrade by Pioneer would solve this, absolutely certain.
ASKDirect will give me a refund - I just didn't want the hassle of returning it to be replaced by what?
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rakuco1
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 09:03 |
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Chris, I´m not sure to have understood your last questions quite right.
My firewire-cards both have three slots per piece. Unfortunately they are un-branded. Chips and drivers I have posted.
Both these cards are able to receive DV signal in (from Rex) and "loop" (hope thats what You mean) this to the next slot out to 5100.
Third slot should carry a signal "in" from Your Sony DV recorder. Think will be "mixed" to the Rex´s signal out. If I were You, I would try such card in extra PC or perhaps same PC; does this function?
This is not the direct way You are originally searching for.
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 09:09 |
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Well - I come to the conclusion it's all about drivers - as Ive not had any signal whatsoever from the 5100 dv direct to pc firewire until.....
I decided to try another capture program & downloaded the trial for adobe premiere pro - loaded it up & I got a direct feed from my 5100 to firewire = perfect picture & sound. Now here's the snag - the signal I was sending from my 5100 HDD was of a NTSC clip I had recorded???????? Now Pioneer told me that the 5100 doesnt transmit NTSC though the DV out port?????? and when I try putting a PAL signal through using the same adobe premiere trial software - guess what - it causes an illegal operation - wont accept PAL signal. Also now with the Adobe drivers onboard, studio 8 also picks up the NTSC out signal - but also fails to take the PAL!!
There is something seriously messed up with this player/recorder!!
P.s. I got my player from Harp/Ask shop also Chris!!!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. January 2004 @ 09:14
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studioman
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 10:08 |
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mijac - why not have a chat with me on the phone? we can discuss a plan of action maybe?? My tel number is on
website www.proactivevideo.co.uk
Ralf - I'll try a combo dv card I think - where did you get yours??
cheers Chris
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 11:43 |
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Hi Chris
Just got your message - cant call just now have company - but I plan to be calling pioneer back on Monday & ask the engineer again to confirm that the DV port doesnt playback NTSC then tell him what I got.
01753 789 806 Richard Fraser (Pioneer UK)
I know for a fact my Pioneer DVR7000 wont playback NTSC though the DV port - so seems they must be fitting these machines with contradictory devices that make the machines incompatible.
I just un-installed Adobe premier & it's still playing back to the firewire NTSC but no PAL.
Though connecting it 4pin to 4 pin DV from 5100 to 7000 it does transfer PAL signal ?????
Check this link - it shows the inside of the 5100, showing a cheap DVR A06, pile of sh!t!!!
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/archive/t192334.html
Chris, can you do me a favour - can you please check your playback direct to the PC to see if yours is sending both PAL/NTSC or just one of them? Just so I dont make a fool of myself on Monday when I have it out with them, because I just might be drivers short of PAL playback on the PC ....
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studioman
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 12:14 |
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I'll see what I can do.
One thing. When I was trying to get a signal (dv) into my Sony Vaio laptop from the Pioneer the Sony said 'ntsc' signal from the external device and your project is set to PAL'
Rubbish! The Pioneer is supposed to be PAL according to my set up. So the Pioneer seems to have been built and programmed by a moron.
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 12:20 |
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Exactly!!!
I do everything I can to set it to PAL capture on my software & still it reverts to saying NTSC 29fps - when I go back after capturing!!
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rakuco1
Junior Member
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25. January 2004 @ 01:29 |
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Yep.
You are right and few hours faster.#
Connected 5100 DV out to one of the slots of my fw-card (3 slots). Connected my Sony Dig8 camcorder to the second slot of the same fw-card. Without driving any video software on the camcorders screen the picture and sound of the 5100 is to be watched correctly (Chris, this kind of fw-cards seem to "loop" also in this direction, my PCI card I bought at "Conrad" but surely they have changed the supplier 27 times since then. PCMCIA-card is "ST Lab IEEE 1394 Firewire Mod. CB-FW1394 made in China "). So DV out of 5100 is ... working.
Then I tried video software.
Studio8: receives/records distorted pictures. The record options switch automatically to "NTSC" input, whether I force "PAL" or not.
SceenalyzerLive Trial (last week´s edition" gives a message: "Problem: driver sends PAL pictures as NTSC or NTSC pictures as PAL. Maybe You should reinstall directx." Hope I translated this correctly to english.
MotionDVStudio Vers. 3.5L21: receives and records pictures absolutely correct. But this program is translated to german so faulty that I don´t know what or where to set options or how they could be set. Ahh: it places grey fields into the pics - but the rest is o.k. The program came to me with the Tosh Sat, so maybe it is a trial version???
MediaStudio7 Trial newest: no efforts.
I think it´s fact that our three 5100 devices give out NTSC from DV slot.
German forum tells that a firmware update is coming soon. But I find little information there about the DV In/Out problem. I will mail again with tokoerber.
Look at http://www.dvdboard.de/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65311 but in german.
btw: dv out of 5100 carries only video material from HDD and own DVD, no material from built-in tuner or from svhs/composite inputs - as far as I experienced.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. January 2004 @ 01:33
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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25. January 2004 @ 03:29 |
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btw: dv out of 5100 carries only video material from HDD and own DVD, no material from built-in tuner or from svhs/composite inputs - as far as I experienced.
That is correct!! only way to overcome this is by using the Canopus advc100 through the svhs out then you can direct record from tuner!!
So I take it Ralf you an only get a NTSC signal into the PC with direct firewire transfer also?
Must say that the NTSC signal I do get into Studio 8 - is crystal clear!! but obviously this is wrong so regardless of that Im still unhappy lol I want pure PAL (what the player is supposed to transmit)going direct from 5100 to PC firewire card - we shall see what occurs hopefully there will be a firmware update soon!! I know the 3100 has already had one to do with the videoplus update on that system.
I'll be calling pioneer regardless tomorrow ....
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rakuco1
Junior Member
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25. January 2004 @ 10:45 |
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 06:31 |
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Hi Chris/Ralf,
Spoke to the DVD Recorder tech Guy at Pioneer today - who is very 'There is no problem with the player!!!!'
I insited the unit was forcing NTSC signals through DV out & not allowing PAL signal to PC/Camcorders.
He asked me to break everything down inc settings being used etc etc and email him direct - also requsted that if anyone I knew also having same problems he needs proof & to get them to email him with all details & settings being used!!
His name is: Richard Fraser (direct email below)
richard_fraser@pgb.pioneer.co.uk
So please pass on his email to anyone it may concern so he actually gets the point that something is wrong!!! As he is totally denying any problem with this player & says it must be something we are doing in the settings!!!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. January 2004 @ 06:33
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studioman
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 06:37 |
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mijac,
You must be a 'righteous person' everytime I tried Richards tel or email I get either a referral to go to the website or else an answer machine saying that Pioneer Tech is VERY busy please do something else..........'
Anyway I have the names of the two guys I spoke to at Pioneer the last time. They will remember me.
So I 'll try Richard also.
Let me know how you get on. ASKDirect are willing to take the 5100 back - but that's not the answer is it??
cheers Chris
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 06:56 |
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I went straight through switchboard & demanded to speak to him LOL - he's the bloke that knows everything (supposedly) about DVD-recorder to PC connection!! & is kind of being arrogant.
I told him of fact that someone in his office: Andrew Williams told me the problem with DV out is I may be playing NTSC source footage which doesnt transfer & to make sure my source footage was PAL???? and whjat does the player do - transfers NTSC only though DV out - diffrent story today though - Richard Fraser states it will transfer any signal - funny that as my DVR7000, their former model doesnt transfer NTSC through DV only PAL!!
So put it all down on email Chris, mainly with regard to DV direct out from 5100 to PC & camcorder ...
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 07:06 |
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And no its not the point that refunds on the player is available - you bought it to do what's it's supposed to do!! And I get fed up of shelling out money for products that never do what they're supposed to!!!
He'll probably give you some excuse also that the DV connection is only supposed to be for Camcorders - this is crap all the people Ive spoken to DV specialists tell me it's just a standard signal & standard firewire cards should accept signals - If that was the case why am I recieving a NTSC signal into my PC???? and an exretemly distorted PAL picture when it feels like it.
Something tells me If I got hold of a US model it would transfer PAL fine and not NTSC!!!
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studioman
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 07:30 |
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mijac,
I have spoken with Richard before - I know what you mean. I get short ansers on email in the past regarding my Pioneer DVR S-201 recorder (a £3,000 machine) and still get the feeling we are just a bit of a nuisance.
I will email and then email Europe and then Japan, whatever it takes.
Trouble is ASK want the machine back or else for me to keep it. Can't blame them.
Don't refer Richard Fraser to this site or he'll get even more remote!!!!!
The thing that bugs me is this. Tech Support is a joke and Customer Relations people means - Trained by Basil Fawlty!
Without us buying their products none of the superior beings would even have a job. If you are not a 'people person' why the heck go in for a job that demands you are???
Finally - have you noticed that most Tech Support depts hide behind answering machines, web sites and everything else that excuses them from speaking to folk who have problems. The final insult is to be told, 'sorry don't know, it's a domestic unit and it does what it does' ( a la Pioneer 5100)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. January 2004 @ 07:32
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 08:23 |
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Don't worry I havent refered him here!!
And yes I have noticed - extremley poor customer relations - pointing from website to website and posting enquiries that are never answered and waiting 1hr+ on phone to receive nothing but Questions in return of Questions from the 'support' team.
Ive just emailed him - Im sure I shouldnt get my hopes up in the slightest for a response anytime soon.
One thing I did remember I was told by Andrew Williams was to connect both 'pioneer' dvd - recorders via DV (as this over-rides anything)to see if the output 'truly' is working - in which case the 5100 should be sold as 'only compatible with other pionner devices' - and yes it does work - but it works with nothing else!!
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studioman
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 08:48 |
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Here's what I emailed to Richard Fraser,
"Hello Richard,
I am contacting you as a result of recently buying a new Pioneer 5100 HS from ASKDirect and finding that there appears to be a dv signal issue that is causing me and many others, according to the Internet, a raft of problems concerning the dv in and dv out signal.
Below is a copy of what I have posted on many forums, including Pioneer, Canopus,etc. One thing is clear all users of newly bought 5100's are having dv problems. Here's mine.
1. I just bought a Pioneer dvr 5100 HS DVD recorder/player. set it up and the following occurs:-
The 5100 has dv in/out.
If I plug my Sony DSR 11 into the 5100 I can get dv in/out. No problems.
When I plug my Sony PD150 into the Pioneer 5100 no problem.
However, if I plug my Canopus RexRT Pro NLE edit system breakout box direct to the Pioneer 5100 I get a 'Can't record' error stating 'no dv input signal'. Big Problem as this is why I bought the 5100!
Yet when I then connect the ReXRT Pro firewire back into the DSR 11 vtr - it works fine.
The pioneer handbook states that the dv signal input must be 'DVC-SD' only.
Now the relevance - I wonder if the dv signal output by RexRT Pro has some information in it that the Pioneer does not like or if there is something 'missing' in the dv signal from my RexRT Pro edit system.
If the Sony DVBK-1 output signal from the RexRT pro system is 'lacking' - can it be altered or adjusted/converted or am I doomed to sending the Pioneer DVD recorder back?
Summary - the Pioneer 5100 HS DVD recorder does everything it says in the manual EXCEPT it refuses the dv signal from my edit system and ONLY the edit system.
I'd love someone to tell me how I can get the dv signal to be recognised by the Pioneer which otherwise is a great machine.
Surely there must be a way to normalise or standardise the signal from my Canopus RexRT Pro so that it satisfies this finicky Pioneer??
2. My settings within the Pioneer are PAL and apart from that I set dv as the input signal when trying to get the dv input from my RexRT Pro system - clearly there is no 'device control' signal within the output from the RexRT pro board ( a professional system)
3. Many people including Miranda, and Kramer suggested I try my Sony Vaio lap top. I have the GRT716S - and tried to get a signal in from the Pioneer 5100 - here's where it get's worse. The Vaio has a modern capture, edit and DVD production application. When I plugged the 5100 in to the Vaio - the Vaio recognises an external AVC system but does not identify it as a camcorder or tape deck.
Also, it immediately senses that the 5100 is sending an 'NTSC' signal as default and queries this fact.
4. When recording is attempted on the Vaio I get the same as the message when trying the RexRT pro edit system ' no dv input'.
I feel, as do others that we are within a gnats whisker of getting the Pioneer to do what it says on the box i.e. 'dv in and dv out'. It is almost there.
Maybe there is a firmware update that would get us all working. I run a video editing and DVD business and the 5100 seemed to be the only model out there to do what I wanted. Other users of the 5100 are as frustrated as me.
I can give you references to sites where the 5100 is getting some bad press if you wish.
My ideal solution to this is two-fold:-
a. firmware update that will get my dv signal from the NLE edit system to be recognised by the 5100 or,
b. an interim combo dv card that will 'fool' the 5100 into accepting the signal.
Please treat this with some urgency as ASKDirect are either expecting Pioneer to come up with a fix, or else they want me to send the unit back. I know of two other guys who are thinking of sending their 5100's back too. That is not the answer to this.
Hope you will respond and help us to help you to sort this one out.
regards
Chris Williams
Proactive Video - Director
ps previously spoken to Jim and Andrew at Pioneer. Quite willing to send this to Pioneer Europe or Japan if you think it might help??"
Can't say fairer than that can you? Just said it!
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rakuco1
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 09:17 |
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Hello again,
I mailed the DVOut/NTSC-problem to R.F. too. Asked him what info he needs to fix that problem.
In the meantime I received a mail from Pioneer Germany (think it comes from Japan and gets translated automaticly/distortedly like the DVOut-picture):
Guten Tag
vielen Dank für Ihre freundliche Anfrage
ich freue mich Ihre Frage aufzunehmen und zu beantworten
nun die Pegelwerte der Netzbetreiber entsprechen nicht den Sollwerten
(the (gauge?)values of the net-(work?IEEE1394 meant?)drivers do not meet specifications)
PIONEER wird aber dennoch ein Update anbieten.
(but PIONEER will offer an update)
Ihre e-mail wurde aufgenommen und Sie erhalten in Kürze eine Nachricht über ein Update.
(in short You will get message about an update)
diese Info lässt sich unter Support auf der Homepage abrufen www.pioneer.de
(look under support on www.pioneer.de)
bzw. unter der Tel 02154 913 315
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
PIONEER Hotline
mail@pioneer-hotline.de
Tel. 06039 800 99 99
So I trust to Mother Pioneer and wait for that update.
Never go to sleep
Yours
Ralf
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rakuco1
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 09:22 |
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Time is 20.27 .
9oclock today evening I set a smile on my face and imagine U2 doing same...
One should do this from time to time, after 20 1/2 posts f.e.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. January 2004 @ 09:24
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 09:25 |
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Hi Ralf,
Would it be possible to translate that email you received from Pioneer about the update in some kind of English readable way :) or what is meant - I tried babelfish but it still confuses me LOL
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rakuco1
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 09:40 |
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Well, I tried my best using two dictionaries on table. Thats why I posted the german too - but sorry, it´s not really german.
I read this as essential:
The values given out of the IEEE1394-slot do not meet specifications.
(Treiber=driver Betreiber=provider net=Netz Wert=value Pegel=gauge???? Soll=debit? what shold be?)
But PIONEER will offer an update. In short You will get message about an update. This Info You can also find on our homepage www.pioneer.de under "support".
Am I not good?
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mijacmad
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 09:59 |
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Thanks Ralf looks hopefull,
wont inform the guy at UK pioneer will wait to see just what rubbish he gives for an excuse LOL
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studioman
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 10:05 |
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mijac - my German is impeccable - what I think Ralf is saying is this:-
"Das macheengen is und pile ov doggenzy poopen - und until Pioneer ist getting istch actun togezer - vee may as vell vissel into das vind"
Ralf - correct me if I'm wrong here!!!!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. January 2004 @ 10:06
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studioman
Junior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 10:11 |
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Ralf, sorry for mangling your language!
You may well be 'the man' after all.............
We'll forgive you for Herr Schroeder and Michael Schumacher!
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