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The Official PC building thread - 4th Edition
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In case you want to ask something like "What components should I pick for my new PC?", start a new topic to our PC building forum.
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6. April 2011 @ 05:51 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I've always had good luck with Crucial even though it is less expensive and not considered a brand name, although I think it is becoming that more and more.

I do agree with you...

Stevo
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6. April 2011 @ 06:56 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
The GameXStream was meant to come with a fan controller, but in the PSUs that were shipped for at least the entire first year it was on sale, they were non-functional. Presumably they've since fixed that issue.
The main issue to watch out for with PSUs is thermal sensitivity, and fan gradient with load. Many PSUs will run fairly quietly and cool by themselves, but as soon as they pick up the smallest amount of ambient case heat start to become noisy, and plenty more PSUs that are very quiet at minimal load suddenly become quite noisy with moderate load.
For example, the corsair CX 400W is 19dB in an anechoic chamber (compare to 11dB for the Nexus units I use) at idle, but in a hot-box setup (i.e. a PC where the PSU is at the top, picking up case heat), it reaches a considerable 26dB by 150W, and a very noisy 32dB at 200W. When running in isolation on the test bench, it's only 19dB at 150W, and 24dB at 200W, so it does make a sizeable difference.

Things have certainly changed in the last few years as far as component reliability goes. OCZ have been bad for memory for quite some time now, and that hasn't changed. G-Skill, who have a good reputation have produced a few bad sticks, and although their average failure rate across the entire range is quite low, the most unreliable individual memory products mostly come from corsair. This isn't obscure high-spec dominator GT stuff, this is commonly bought pairs, like the 8500C5 XMS2 dominators and the 6400C5 XMS2.
The most reliable brand (perhaps surprisingly) is Kingston, with Crucial and Corsair not far behind, but with all these brands' failure rates less than 1 in 70, none of them are really a risky buy. With OCZ's failure rate more than 1 in 15, they're best avoided.
OCZ's PSU's used to be quite poor back in the early days, they improved slightly with the GameXStream but were still relatively mediocre implementations of quite mediocre OEMs (Fortron). They weren't going to go pop like the cheap units, but for the price tag, there was better stuff out there.
Corsair used to be the gold standard for PSUs from the introduction of the excellent HX520/620 units several years ago, up until the end of 2010. Since then, things have gone seriously downhill. The CX Builder series are very cheap, and it shows, they're proving quite unreliable. There have been a fair few problems with the flagship AX units too, despite their excellent credentials.
Worst of all though, previously solid units, the HX620, HX1000, and a quite commonly bought newcomer the TX950, take silver, bronze and gold respectively for the most unreliable power supplies sold in france, with the HX620/TX950 failure rates more than twice any other PSU.

For large mechanical drives, with the exception of the WD2001FASS which is faring quite poorly (1 in 10), the only real risky buy is the Hitachi Deskstar, the least reliable large capacity drive (5-6% for the 1TB, 7% for the 2TB). On the whole WD Green drives score quite well (especially the earlier EADS drives, which are top of each size class for reliability), and by contrast, the WD1001FALS scores very well too (1 in 74).
For 1TB drives, if you stick with WD you can't really go too wrong, and even the Samsung F3 and Seagate LP are reasonably solid buys, just avoid the 7200rpm seagates (especially the 7200.11), the Samsung F1, and anything by Hitachi.
With the exception of the WD20EADS way out in front, none of the 2TB drives score that well, with second place (Ecogreen F3) scoring worse than all bar the Hitachis at 1TB, but the failure rates of the main competitors, barracuda LP, Ecogreen F3 and WD20EARS, are all fairly similar, at 4-5% each. As before, just stay away from hitachi (oh, and the WD2001FASS)

For SSDs, there is simply no contest for reliability. The failure rate for most SSD brands falls between 1 in 46 for Corsair, and 1 in 34 for OCZ. For intel, it's a staggering 1 in 170. Intel know how to make SSDs, it seems.

By comparison, the average failure rate for CPUs? 1 in 550. Why can't all hardware be so reliable? :P



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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6. April 2011 @ 07:07 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Because CPUs are load tested as part of their manufacturing process aren't they? If a chip is bad it never becomes a complete product anyway.



AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2011 @ 07:08

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6. April 2011 @ 07:08 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
true but so is everything else we buy, supposedly :P



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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6. April 2011 @ 07:11 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Eh what can I say never had a bad CPU I didn't break myself. I first went AM2 with my X2 4400+ because I broke a pin off my X2 3800+ XD



AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
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6. April 2011 @ 07:12 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I remember when the pins were on the CPU...
Thankfully that was before I started dabbling with hardware too much :P



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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6. April 2011 @ 07:13 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Pins still ARE on the CPU for me. LGA sockets are weird XD



AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
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6. April 2011 @ 09:08 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
The GameXStream was meant to come with a fan controller, but in the PSUs that were shipped for at least the entire first year it was on sale, they were non-functional. Presumably they've since fixed that issue.
The main issue to watch out for with PSUs is thermal sensitivity, and fan gradient with load. Many PSUs will run fairly quietly and cool by themselves, but as soon as they pick up the smallest amount of ambient case heat start to become noisy, and plenty more PSUs that are very quiet at minimal load suddenly become quite noisy with moderate load.
For example, the corsair CX 400W is 19dB in an anechoic chamber (compare to 11dB for the Nexus units I use) at idle, but in a hot-box setup (i.e. a PC where the PSU is at the top, picking up case heat), it reaches a considerable 26dB by 150W, and a very noisy 32dB at 200W. When running in isolation on the test bench, it's only 19dB at 150W, and 24dB at 200W, so it does make a sizeable difference.

Things have certainly changed in the last few years as far as component reliability goes. OCZ have been bad for memory for quite some time now, and that hasn't changed. G-Skill, who have a good reputation have produced a few bad sticks, and although their average failure rate across the entire range is quite low, the most unreliable individual memory products mostly come from corsair. This isn't obscure high-spec dominator GT stuff, this is commonly bought pairs, like the 8500C5 XMS2 dominators and the 6400C5 XMS2.
The most reliable brand (perhaps surprisingly) is Kingston, with Crucial and Corsair not far behind, but with all these brands' failure rates less than 1 in 70, none of them are really a risky buy. With OCZ's failure rate more than 1 in 15, they're best avoided.
OCZ's PSU's used to be quite poor back in the early days, they improved slightly with the GameXStream but were still relatively mediocre implementations of quite mediocre OEMs (Fortron). They weren't going to go pop like the cheap units, but for the price tag, there was better stuff out there.
Corsair used to be the gold standard for PSUs from the introduction of the excellent HX520/620 units several years ago, up until the end of 2010. Since then, things have gone seriously downhill. The CX Builder series are very cheap, and it shows, they're proving quite unreliable. There have been a fair few problems with the flagship AX units too, despite their excellent credentials.
Worst of all though, previously solid units, the HX620, HX1000, and a quite commonly bought newcomer the TX950, take silver, bronze and gold respectively for the most unreliable power supplies sold in france, with the HX620/TX950 failure rates more than twice any other PSU.

For large mechanical drives, with the exception of the WD2001FASS which is faring quite poorly (1 in 10), the only real risky buy is the Hitachi Deskstar, the least reliable large capacity drive (5-6% for the 1TB, 7% for the 2TB). On the whole WD Green drives score quite well (especially the earlier EADS drives, which are top of each size class for reliability), and by contrast, the WD1001FALS scores very well too (1 in 74).
For 1TB drives, if you stick with WD you can't really go too wrong, and even the Samsung F3 and Seagate LP are reasonably solid buys, just avoid the 7200rpm seagates (especially the 7200.11), the Samsung F1, and anything by Hitachi.
With the exception of the WD20EADS way out in front, none of the 2TB drives score that well, with second place (Ecogreen F3) scoring worse than all bar the Hitachis at 1TB, but the failure rates of the main competitors, barracuda LP, Ecogreen F3 and WD20EARS, are all fairly similar, at 4-5% each. As before, just stay away from hitachi (oh, and the WD2001FASS)

For SSDs, there is simply no contest for reliability. The failure rate for most SSD brands falls between 1 in 46 for Corsair, and 1 in 34 for OCZ. For intel, it's a staggering 1 in 170. Intel know how to make SSDs, it seems.

By comparison, the average failure rate for CPUs? 1 in 550. Why can't all hardware be so reliable? :P
Sam,

I discovered a minor flaw with the Coolit, in that sensor control is just too slow. That's why when the fan controlled by the bios barely starts to ramp up when it slows right back down again the minute cooling starts to take effect. The sensors are just too sluggish to be effective as it's always a day late and a dollar short. That's why I run both the Push and Pull fans at full speed all the time. At 1800 rpm for the Push and 1200 rpm for the Pull, it maintains lower temperatures across the entire load range. This is something that Coolit neds to address! It's not that it's very loud, but they need to come up with load sensing/thermal solution so that the fans can be controlled more efficiently. Thankfully for now, both the stock fan and the scythe are able to control the temps to the point of never exceeding 53C under full load, all 6 cores at 100%!

Which brings me to the OCZ 550FTY. The fan in it has both load sensitive and thermal sensitive controllers, so in effect you get instant linear cooling the instant a load is applied to the PSU, while the thermal sensor, by it's more sluggish nature both up and down, controls the de-acceleration of the fan, when the load is removed, better removing the vast majority of the heat! From all the reviews I read, it seems to work quite well.

Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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6. April 2011 @ 09:21 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
With a 120mm fan at 1800rpm all the time, it's no wonder you think the OCZ PSU is quiet, most PSUs even those rated quite poorly by noise-sensitive sites would be inaudible behind such a noisy fan. Noise is of course relative, for most people noise wouldn't get too irritating until multiple 2000rpm 120s were in use, but for me, just one 1800, even a very good one, is quite loud, at least at idle. There is no resonance with the SFF21F in my CPU cooler (the plastic fan holders are surprisingly good for vibrations), yet I can still clearly hear it when it's at 100% speed (1550rpm in this case), and while it's understandable and livable at full load, at idle it'd really annoy me, and I'm glad it drops down to 1000rpm or less at idle where I can't really hear it over the 120hz hard disk noise.
You can't have two means of controlling the same fan, otherwise they'd conflict. You could have two inputs into a logic-controlled fan speed (which seems a very complex and expensive method) and take the highest value, but still, you'd get the same results with the load-sensitive method.
What most companies do that want more sensitive (read:noisier) fan control, is place the sensor right on top of a fundamental component like a power transistor, instead of just having one somewhere in the unit to take an ambient temperature. Such units can be frustrating though, as spikes in power draw from a few seconds' CPU usage (opening a program for example) are enough to raise the PSU fan speed. The fan speed changes with ambient-sense PSUs are slow enough not to annoy you with the fan speed going up and down all the time, but usually come with idle fan speeds high enough for cooling to not be an issue, i.e. they're quite noisy even at idle (e.g. Corsair HX 1000).
The ideal sort of PSU is one that has a flat idle line for a considerable load before ramping, so you only ever see raised fan speed when the whole system is under heavy load. The 850W Zalman I use for example, runs at idle fan speed all the way up to 700W DC when run with a separate air supply (such as in the HAF 932 case), which is ideal. The only time the fan speed would ever rise is if I opened OCCT or furmark with my old 4870X2s installed (which actually ran the unit over 100% load), and you'd never hear a 1400rpm 140mm fan beneath two 6000rpm graphics fans [which always run at 100% in OCCT due to the 99ºC GPU temps even at that speed)



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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6. April 2011 @ 15:18 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
by Sam
The ideal sort of PSU is one that has a flat idle line for a considerable load before ramping, so you only ever see raised fan speed when the whole system is under heavy load.
This couldn't be more correct and although Russ's pressurized case is the best way to run and keep temps down it is way too noisy. I've pressurized old amplifiers in the old days to keep them from clipping under intense load and it works very well, but I don't want my PC screaming at me under these same conditions.

From the manufactures specs green drive only save about 1.5w under load and 0.3w idle. Seek times are 12-13ms verses 8ms for a good drive and then there is that 13 seconds for the drive to ready on green drives. Green drives do not play music or video well on a media server as you get hiccups? from time-to-time. Green drives from the annual failure percentages are around 1% compared to 0.3% for a good drive that equates to 3x more failures but really 1% is even really good if not excellent. So is a Green drive GREEN? And is a Green drive the way to go? I think not!

Good critique Sam, very good!
Stevo
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6. April 2011 @ 15:20 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Green drives are no good for media use ?, i have to disagree (quite strongly), no hiccups here. And the servers we run at work with green drives (as the main drives, plus servers with greens as data drives) will have to disagree too :)



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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6. April 2011 @ 15:28 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
You may disagree but it is a fact that even the manufacture supports so believe what you want.
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6. April 2011 @ 15:31 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I'm not 'believing' anything, in fact i have no idea what the manufacturers support (other than vague recollections that they're not any good in certain NAS devices), am just going by my own experiences, on work servers and all my home machines. 'fraid we'll have to agree to disagree.



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2011 @ 15:32

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6. April 2011 @ 15:37 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I like my green drives :p The heads unload after a few seconds, but I don't allow the platters to spin down. So my wait time for readiness is trivial. They'll probably run this way for about a year, and then I'll upgrade to 3Tb drives, and the 2000EARS will be shelved. The transfer speeds are equal to my WD1001FALS drives :)



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
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6. April 2011 @ 15:41 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
It's common knowledge that they're not ideal for everything, as in certain NAS applications as i mentioned, but for my uses, in media use at home plus obviously shunting large amounts of data around between drives, and in servers at work.



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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6. April 2011 @ 15:48 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Your servers at work may be tweaked or they are an enterprise green drive there is a difference. But even a normal green drive I can adjust it to work with a server just fine, however why would I do that when I can get the same warranty and get a blue drive for about the same price but that performs a bit better. I'm sorry but it just doesn't add up to me.

The bottom line is your happy with your green drives and that is fine I just think it is better at pretty much no lose to buy a normal drive especially since green drives aren't really green they are a gimmick and Green is in these days.
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6. April 2011 @ 15:53 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
We've had these discussions before, i think i already conceded that of course non-green drives are better for some uses, and to yourself they don't prove a good enough substitute. That's fine, i haven't tweaked anything re their use in servers nor do i use enterprise green drives currently, they're just WD20EARS drives. Not loads of them (at work), granted, but they work great and shunt/& serve large amounts of data regularly. I do format my home greens to the 'advanced format' purely as i swap drives around and use XP and linux, with a bit of Win7.
Each to their own, i'm not dismissing your views or opinions, am simply stating that for me, in my uses, they are absolutely fine. And i'll leave it there as we'd already had this debate before :)



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2011 @ 15:54

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6. April 2011 @ 15:57 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Does WD even make a Blue 2Tb drive :S



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6. April 2011 @ 16:01 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Ooh it's more than 1.5W, it's about 4W on both occasions and no there aren't blue 2TB drives, that I know of.
I don't use green drives for power savings. I use them because they're half the price, and less than half the noise!



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2011 @ 16:02

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6. April 2011 @ 16:02 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
Ooh it's more than 1.5W, it's about 4W on both occasions and no there aren't blue 2TB drives, that I know of.
Kind of my point ;) It's either black(expensive), or green. :p



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
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6. April 2011 @ 16:05 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
That's cool Creaky I'm not trying to start something and unfortunately I think you're OK too. :) LOL

Seagate makes the Green AV drives and they are made to perform well on a 24/7 bases like and enterprise drives so I'm looking at that for my media server. Just don't tell anyone I bought a Green drive... LOL
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6. April 2011 @ 16:08 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
That's ok, i'm just trying to concentrate in Halo Reach, am driving a Covenant Revenant and it's not even tickling the Hunters, and takes ages to even take out a Wraith argh..... :)



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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6. April 2011 @ 16:21 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
Ooh it's more than 1.5W, it's about 4W on both occasions and no there aren't blue 2TB drives, that I know of.
I don't use green drives for power savings. I use them because they're half the price, and less than half the noise!
No you can look up the specs the mfg's post I just did!
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6. April 2011 @ 16:21 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
Ooh it's more than 1.5W, it's about 4W on both occasions and no there aren't blue 2TB drives, that I know of.
I don't use green drives for power savings. I use them because they're half the price, and less than half the noise!
No you can look up the specs the mfg's post I just did!
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6. April 2011 @ 16:29 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Indeed sam. The green drives are considerably quieter than the black drives ;)



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
 
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