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Is DVD Rebuilder/CCE worth if for less than 20% compression?
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64026402
Senior Member
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17. August 2004 @ 20:13 |
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I had already been spending quite a bit of time at doom9 for rebuilder and RBfarm information. I didn't notice any visual quality concerns either.
The proof is in using it. I get extremely good results with CCE/rebuilder. It is very consistent.
Donald
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 02:24 |
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Guys, could any of you with a good monitor check something for me?
http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/32b3_CCEvbr2_3.zip
When you play the second title, can you notice some "crawling" effect on the sides of Gandalf's nose?
I can see it on my monitor, but I'm not sure if it is actually there or if it's due to some limitation from my LCD and/or graphic card.
TIA. ;)
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64026402
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 03:29 |
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Sounds like comparison time.
To keep it fair.
Which LOTR is this and what is the time stamp of the captured clip.
What program did you use to capture the video clips and what settings were used.
What programs were used for backing up the smaller clip and the larger clip respectively. Any reasoning for using different size clips?
I noticed this is a non action scene. Did you run any clips were the bitrate is high?
Donald
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2004 @ 03:36
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64026402
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 03:35 |
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On intial check of the blind clips I do not note the nose crawl. Are you looking for some aberant movement around the nose or an artifact while stopped?
Donald
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 04:01 |
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Donald, I just wanted someone to confirm the "nose crawl" :D , abberant movement.
I have recently had to change my main graphic card and couldn't remember having noticed these artefacts before.
This comparison was taken from a series I made while testing v3.2 beta 3:
http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/comparative_tests.html
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2004 @ 04:10
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 05:14 |
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Added time stamps. ;)
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 05:57 |
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Donald, you might want to wait.
Yesterday I made a backup of LOTR-ROTK with v3.2.0.15, using the "Smooth" setting.
I'm in the process of doing some more compilations, using the same clips as previously used.
I'd be extremely interested if you could make the same tests using DVD RB / CCE basic so we can compare our results. ;)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2004 @ 07:00
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 06:49 |
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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18. August 2004 @ 12:30 |
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Double "D"
I didn't see any noise on the nose that differed from any other parts of the movie. LCD's are less accurate overall than good CRT's (especially for color balance) so it could be related to your monitor. My monitor as you know is a 22" Professional series P225f Viewsonic and my vid card is a HIS excalibur IceQ Ati 9800 Pro so if there was an anomaly I would've seen it.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 13:23 |
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Well, it's kinda weird you don't see artefacts that both 64026402 and I see. :/
They do not appear in the original clip either. :\
My EIZO monitor was noted as being the most faithfull in terms of color reproduction.
It cost almost twice as much as other 17" LCD monitors at the time, but I needed something of that caliber to work with Photoshop. ;)
P.S: did you check the first or second title?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2004 @ 13:24
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2004 @ 13:43 |
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" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2004 @ 13:45
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 13:57 |
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I never said you bought your CRT because it was cheaper.
Neither have I said LCDs are better than CRTs. :)
Thanks for the links though. ;)
I've just uploaded another compilation of the same clip.
The first title is from the original, the second from the DVD2DVD-R/CCE backup.
You should see the artefacts both 64026402 and I are talking about.
http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/original_CCEvbr2_3.zip
P.S: oops, it does look like I misread 64026402's post. :/
To clarify my point, I'm seeing aberant movement around the nose. ;)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2004 @ 14:01
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2004 @ 14:05 |
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Double "D"
Since we have high speed connections could you make your clips a little longer? I must have viewed the last one more than 20 times.
I didn't mean to imply that you said I bought my CRT because it was cheaper I just added that because I wanted you to know that I wanted an LCD I just didn't think they were ready for my uses. If it sounded that way then I apologize.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 14:13 |
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No need to apologize.
As you do not use "smilies" it is sometimes hard to know what "tone" of voice you're "talking" with. ;)
I'm affraid the only clips I can change the length of are from either the original or the DVD Shrink backup.
I deleted the DVD2DVD-R/CCE, IC8 and all the other transcoders backups. :/
I can only suggest you do what I do: play them in slow motion.
Not only will they last longer, but they will be even more revealing. :)
_
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2004 @ 14:14
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 14:34 |
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This little animation gives an idea of the aberant movement I'm talking about.
It was obviously made with cropped and white-level-boosted screen captures, but it gives a pretty good idea of what I notice when comparing the DVD2DVD-R/CCE backup to the DVD Shrink one or the original.
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2004 @ 14:38 |
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Hmm! I'll work on my smilies. You still haven't told me what you are getting at, what is it you would like us to help you prove? :)
I'm still studying DVD2DVD-R/CCE but I haven't given up. It uses a slightly different path (ifoedit) than does DVD-RB/CCE (avisynth). To use DVD2DVD-R I had to install CCE 2.67 to a different folder than CCE 2.69 (I use with DVD-RB) so that I can have them both installed at the same time.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2004 @ 14:40 |
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I think that if you check you'll see some of that through out the same frame.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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ericbee
Member
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18. August 2004 @ 14:46 |
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ddlooping: After all of the 3 pages I have read and after looking at your lengthy and detailed clips, I am still uncertain as to YOUR opinion, which I think is most valuable.
Could you please summarize what your feelings are regarding shrink 3.2 and CCE as asked for in the title of this thread?
I for one would be most interested in your expert opinion. Thanks
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 14:47 |
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I'm not sure what you mean, Sophocles. :/
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2004 @ 14:50 |
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The same flaws you demonstrated in your clip are apparent through out the entirety of each frame. Since DVD Shrink beta testing is over I'm curious as to your purpose.:)
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 15:04 |
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ericbee, thank you for your trust, but the main goal I was trying to achieve when making these compilations was for DVD-backupers like you to make their own mind up.
However, my reply to Sophocles (read below) will probably answer your question. :D
Sophocles, TNT, a member from the Digital Video Forums, asked me to remake the compilations using v3.2.0.15 (as opposed to v3.2 beta 3)
As he originally prefered the IC8 clips to the v3.2b3 ones, he wanted to see if there had been any improvements.
I made a new backup with v3.2.0.15 "Sharp" setting and found it to be very similar (if not identical) to the v3.2 beta 3 one.
As my previous tests showed "Maximum Smoothness" to have an output almost identical to IC8, I then decided to try with the "Smooth" option.
To my suprise, I personally found it to be not only better than IC8, but as good and on some clips better than the DVD2DVD-R/CCE backup (*ddlooping puts on flame-retardant suit*)!!
I found it very relevant to this particualr thread, but would have much prefered if others would have noticed it without me saying.
In any case, these results only apply to this particular movie, and are also based on what I see.
You might see something totally different, and reach totally different conclusions.
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 15:09 |
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P.S: I guess my point was (not specifically addressed to you, Sophocles)...
"Please, throw away your prejudices towards DVD Shrink (and transcoders in general).
Take the time to make your own un-biased comparison tests, and you might be in for a surprise". :)
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 15:21 |
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P.P.S: I guess my point was also my way to reply to brian100's statement that CCE backups will always be better.
I could have simply said "Nope", but always find it better when one can actually substantiate one's claims. :)
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2004 @ 15:31 |
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Double "D"
Thanks for being up front. I don't think that I have a prejudice against transcoders but rather a predilection toward CCE because of genuine experience. I have a library of over 500 backups and almost 400 of them were made with transcoders.
When I used to be an Audio Video consultant I used to sell ¾ inch beta and VHS cams. They were state of the art at the time but it was impossible to hide white clipping noise. A trick we often used was to adjust the contrast and lower the sharpness. By lowering the contrast and the sharpness the noise was dispersed or blurred into the background (like the way a chalk artist blends their colors) and was less apparent but if you looked closely you also noticed that the entire picture had also lost clarity. So in the end, one was left with a trade off, less jittering and less sharpness and contrast or some jittering and improved sharpness and contrast.
This is what I found while testing Shrink and I think I passed that on to you a couple of times. When I enlarged the picture enough DVDcopy2, IC8, and CCE when blown up clearly showed the outlines of the macro (normal} blocks but I couldn?t immediately see them with Shrink until I looked closely and noticed that they were there but they were smudged or blurred into the background. Closer inspection further revealed that the contrast and sharpness also took a hit on the rest of the picture quality. To some that looks better but try and examine a strand of hair among hairs on someone?s head and it gets lost.
Have you considered that perhaps it?s your prejudice that needs addressing? :) Have you yet tried RB/CCE successfully, it?s quite a different process than DVD2DVD-R?
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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18. August 2004 @ 15:48 |
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Sophocles, I think we could argue (in a friendly manner) about the subject for quite a while. :D
Tell you what...
You have DVD RB/CCE, DVD Shrink v3.2.0.15, and possibly quite a lot of other transcoders.
You also have a fast system that enables you to make backups in a third (or less) the time it takes me.
You are on broadband, but most likely on a faster connection than myself (256mb).
Why don't you make several backups of the same movie (LOTR-FOTR or LOTR-ROTK would be good test subjects, IMO), and make compilations of short clips?
I'll setup an FTP account for you at dvdshrink.info, and will give you the neccessary webspace for you to upload the compilations.
How about that for a non-prejudiced-blind test? ;)
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