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Intel P4 vs AMD
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AfterDawn Addict
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5. October 2005 @ 17:37 |
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brobear
Apparently there is a mystery because all the steps you just mentioned are wrong or over simplified. Yes there's voltage adjustments that can in some cases stabilize an overclocked CPU but it can also make them unstable or overheat them and they're not all set in the bios some require manual pin setting. My CPU requires no voltage settings of any kind but my memory did. My board requires some manual settings as well that aren't in the bios. Until about two or three years ago there were no bios settings and all overclocks were done with physical settings made on the motherboard a fact that only us old dogs remember.
Many CPU's don't require or cannot receive higher voltages, the Intel Prescott is just such a CPU. To overclock an AMD CPU you might be adjusting both the clock multiplier and the frontside bus.
Trivia question. If you've made a bad voltage or overclock setting and your system won't boot, what do you do?
Memory also might require voltage adjustments for stabilization. And then there's memory timing settings crucial to overclocking the CPU because if they fail then it all fails. System memory speed and quality has to be purchased to match your intent and not the system. There's the memory divider settings. Now the CPU multiplier, the frontside bus, and memory timings are all affected by each other (they're multiples). Make one setting on one of them then you will probably have to make another setting on all of them.
Another trivia question do we raise or lower the frontside bus and why?
Actually no motherboard supplies their own bios' they're made by independent companies such as award or phoenix. The same goes for the chipsets they too are made by different companies. For instance Via, sis, nvidia, Intel, and now even ATI all make chipsets. The chipset on the Dell 8300 using the Northwood is of the 845G/VE variants but they only allow for 2 gigs of memory. I built a system using an Asus board about 18 months ago that used that chipset. The newer 8300 uses the Intel 775 chipsets which is incompatible with a Northwood they only work with Prescott's and they can handle 4 gigs.
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Just out of curiosity, how do you know what I've done or not done?
We've been in close online contact for almost 17 months, you've been telling me off and on for all that time.
One final point, this entire post took me less than 15 minutes and I didn't surf the net once, this is all from memory. Now you try that.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. October 2005 @ 07:30
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64026402
Senior Member
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5. October 2005 @ 18:46 |
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I thought that Brobear had the Prescott, from previous posts. I could be incorrect.
The memory support for a Dell would depend upon the board used as well as the processor. Is there a problem with the Northwood when accessing more than 2 gigs?
Donald
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AfterDawn Addict
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5. October 2005 @ 19:02 |
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64026402
No the trouble is with the chipset(845g) that was used with the Northwood. brobear told me that he had the Northwood because so did I. The Northwood was still a better processor though. The Dell 8300 series covered a lot of territory with some reaching 3.2GHZ or higher but they are Prescotts.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. October 2005 @ 03:47 |
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brobear
I'm not trying to prove that I'm more intelligent than you are. A greater knowledge of PC technology doesn't mean that either it just means that I know more about something than you do. I've always valued your intelligence and you know it. It might seem like I'm trying to be know-it-all but, remember I've asked for your advice regarding Fantasfootball because I'm a total idiot when it comes to sports. At DVDrip you'll notice that I never posted in the 321 thread because I had nothing to offer. When I have a question about DVDremake I always ask bigo or Vurbal. Although I'm knowledgeable about AMD CPU's it's because I've worked with them but the truth is I know more about IntelCPU's because over the last 10 year I've used them more. But right now AMD is it, maybe next year it will be Intel again, that's one of the reasons that I'm holding off on dual core (wqating for a price drop is another). If you want to find an area that Intel is winning in then you should've researched the Dothan core m-class CPU.
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050525/pentium4-19.html#_under_...
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. October 2005 @ 04:39
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brobear
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6. October 2005 @ 05:15 |
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Sophocles
I mentioned the P4 Northwood. I'm glad you agree it is a good CPU. But once again you're wrong in your assumptions. Where did you get your information? Not all Dell 8300 models using the P4 Northwood used the 845G chipset. Interestingly enough, my PC uses the Intel 875P chipset. That chipset supports 4GB of memory. Intel was supporting 4GB RAM with the 860 chipsets. With the 845s the 845G was limited to 2GB, but the G wasn't the only 845. The 845 was able to support up to 3GB of RAM when using SDR.
I don't see my needing 4GB or RAM or wanting to invest high dollars for that much in the near future, but the possibility is there. My 8300 with the 875P chipset sure wasn't obsolete out of the box. The board with an 875P chipset can utilize a more advanced CPU and memory over what I currently have in use. Glad you mentioned over 3.2 as well, as it can handle more.
I believe that may be the first time I mentioned the chipset. I wouldn't want you wandering around being wrong in the future. But then you are never wrong, you only make oversites. You weren't referring to an 8300 with an 875P chipset, but the one with the 845G chips. Quote:
No the trouble is with the chipset(845g) that was used with the Northwood. -Sophocles-
That statement does imply that Dell only used the Northwood with the 845G chipset, which is totally erroneous as shown by my Dell 8300 with a Northwood processor and the Intel 875P chipset. You need to start getting all the info and stop just relying on your memory and what you've run into personally.
You are the master of OCing around these parts, I conceded that to you. With your overwhelming knowledge of clockspeeds, you should have realized something when I mentioned a 800 MHz FSB. First off, the 845G chipset supports the 533/400 MHz systems. Having a 800MHz FSB sort of eliminated the possibility of mine having the 845G chipset right off. Seems the master either forgot something or was never aware of it.
I realize you've made a hobby of OCing your custom PC systems. Interesting hobby if that is how one wants to spend their time. One place you made another error; I never told you I couldn't build a PC. In fact we've never discussed what my technical skills are. I've constantly listend to you tell of your accomplishments though and boast of your abilities working with PCs. Good for you. I've often preferred having you work with others on PC solutions because you enjoy exhibiting your knowledge and skills. Noticed you don't always get it right there either. Case in point, your recently not telling someone to check the BIOS when their new system wasn't picking up on "plug and play". That was with one of your new specialties, an AMD equipped PC. I wasn't sure myself, so I'm not saying I'm better because you made an error. Of course you weren't there in person, but then when are we here on the net.
As you pointed out, I can google and get most any answer to your trivia games. I conceded you are the OC king. ;) If you don't think I know a solution, then you can simply say I googled for it. I'm not one of those people who try to claim I know everything. One of my professors said he didn't give a damn for those who know everything and try to memorize eveything. They tend to waste a lot of time in that pursuit. A person who knows where to find information and utilize it when found doesn't have to carry the burden and associated problems of memorization. As shown, your memory failed you where the P4N and the 845 chipset was concerned and your forgetting the 845 wasn't for a 800MHz system; that or you had not put all the data to memory, problem either way.
Since you always have to be right... you would win in a one on one trivia game. I don't try to remember everything. As you pointed out, I am good at finding answers and I know how to utilize what I find. You can reap whatever you think your rewards are. We're not playing Jeopardy. So, for your trivia games, you can go play by yourself, they have no relevance I can accept.
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The problem with this debate is that you?ve never built a machine, over clocked a machine, tweaked its memory with different timings, adjusted its front side bus, or in other words you?ve never been under its hood. But you?re asking me to compete with internet results? I?m not going to try and beat every posted spec that you find on a tech site on the web, there are a lot of variables unaccounted for. I can tell you this; the new AMD?s do more than just make games run faster, they do it all (including encoding) faster than or comparable to an equally priced Intel, a claim that Intel can?t make no mater who builds the machine. -Sopohocles-
That was where you started making it personal in saying I had no right to discuss the matter because I had no understanding or knowledge. Then you told me I didn't even know how much memory my own PC was capable of supporting. That was an attack on me, not the merits of the discussion. Neither of us have top end equipment, yet we were talking about the merit of the new developments. The discussion covered hardware from the near past to what you have to AMD and Intel dual cores. We went from discussing hardware to your abilities as an avid custom PC builder and OC hobbyist. You've relegated what was a discussion to your having to prove you're right or at least making some point and getting in the last word. This discussion moved away from the merits of AMD and Intel some time ago and has become a theatre for your performance. You da man. So let it go. I said before I have nothing more to say and you dragged me back in, this time I mean it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. October 2005 @ 08:35
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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6. October 2005 @ 11:45 |
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I did make an error with your chipset, I was actually giving you the chipset from my last system that had the P4Pe motherboard. I didn't intend to offend you with the statement that I posted, all I was trying to say is that I can't out think the entire net but since it did offend you I apologize. I would never say that you have no right to discuss anything because what would be the point of being in a forum.
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That statement does imply that Dell only used the Northwood with the 845G chipset, which is totally erroneous as shown by my Dell 8300 with a Northwood processor and the Intel 875P chipset. You need to start getting all the info and stop just relying on your memory and what you've run into personally
I believe I did mention that the 8300 series also used the 775 chipset for Prescott's'. I have to admit that I have limited knowledge of Dell or any other commercially made PC.
The bios does affect plug and play in fact there's a setting in it that States "plug and play operating system." It's best to disable it.
Although my CPU is mid priced my video card, memory, and motherboard are high end. I expected to turn my mid priced CPU into a high priced equivalent performer.
Below are some of my motherboard specs.
http://usa.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=375&l1=3&l2=...
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. October 2005 @ 12:36
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theridges
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6. October 2005 @ 16:03 |
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AMD all the way no doubt that why i bought one i did my reading and made the right choice..
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brobear
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6. October 2005 @ 16:27 |
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Sophocles
Apology accepted.
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believe I did mention that the 8300 series also used the 775 chipset for Prescott's'. -Sophocles-
Not that I remember. 775 as in LGA775 is the socket type for the new Prescotts (Socket T), a change from the Socket 478. 775 may have been mentioned in relation to the new Prescotts, but not as a mobo chipset designation. Intel is now using chipsets in the 900 series. I have to have a chart to keep up with all that Intel has and keeps changing. Sort of like having to have a program to keep up with the show. Now that they are using number designations for processors, I definitely have to have something to keep up with the operating frequencies and which mobo chipsets are being used.
The first time I remember mention of the 875 chips was when I brought them up with my PC. Before that you mentioned the 845G. We were talking about the newer 955 chips earlier in relation to the new Intel processors with the LGA775 Socket. All those numbers start to confuse me after a while. ;) You may have mentioned the Prescott and chipsets on another thread. The numbers for the Intel mobo chipsets appear to be sequential. For instance the chipset for my older PC is the 875P which was an improvement over the even older 845G. Not really that old as Asus and others are still selling boards with the 875P chipsets.
It appears Intel is now phasing the 875P out because they're pushing the new chipsets along with their new processors. The 875P has had a good run and is still a useful chipset unless one is going for an ultimate setup. The 875 utilizes the Socket 478 processors and the new ones are the Socket T as I mentioned before. How many chipsets have you seen stay near the top of the list in performance as long as this one has? Support for a 800MHz FSB and HyperThreading technology, the 875P was there for the beginning of the performance PCs we see today.
I just lucked out and got a mobo with the 875P chips because of the configuration I ordered, I ordered a sound card and graphics card. Had I selected the slower FSB and onboard sound, I probably would have ended up with a mobo having the 845 chips. That's where the custom builder really has the advantage, he knows the parts he wants and can install them. With the factory, you can't call them up and tell them which mobos and chipsets you want.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. October 2005 @ 17:03
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. October 2005 @ 17:26 |
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Well now that you brought it up. LOL
Intel's most famous chipset of all time has to be the 440BX. It survived through both the PII and PIII CPU's. Some thought that it would just keep going on like the energizer Bunny. It had a native frontside bus speed of 100 MHZ but it could be overclocked to 130 Mhz which is quite a gain for the time. It was also a very fast chip. But then via came out with their socket 370 chipset that had a 133 mhz frontside bus that was slower than Lintel's overclocked 130 frontside bus but the via frontside bus could be overclocked to 150 MHZ. Whatever the 440BX lasted for quite a while.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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brobear
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6. October 2005 @ 17:55 |
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LOL I can honestly say, that, I didn't know. ;)
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64026402
Senior Member
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6. October 2005 @ 18:51 |
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Since we are getting nostalgic, I had a dual Celeron 500Mhz socket 370 with an Abit board. They were popular as the only budget Dual system at the time. Very overclockable.
Donald
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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10. October 2005 @ 06:31 |
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" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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64026402
Senior Member
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10. October 2005 @ 19:33 |
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On the dual core front my 3800x2 has a new heat sink. I got the 30 dollar big copper heat pipe coolermaster. (not to big, but about the same size as the 80mm fan on top with a lot of fins)
Now it maxs out at 43 degrees during DRB encodes at 2.6 ghz. It is pretty quiet under load and dead silent when not encoding.
I can't see using water cooling when the temps are this low already.
Donald
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64026402
Senior Member
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10. October 2005 @ 19:36 |
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I do hope a dual core notebook comes out pretty quick. I don't care if its Intel or AMD. I use my notebook corded most of the time so some extra power usage isn't a problem.
Donald
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AfterDawn Addict
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11. October 2005 @ 12:39 |
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64026402
Agreed! I've just taken on a whole new job within the educational system (support facilitator) and I do a lot of online paperwork and multi tasking.
Yet another Intel prospect for the near future.
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20051010/index.html
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 11. October 2005 @ 12:40
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Triock
Account closed as per user's own request
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11. October 2005 @ 13:23 |
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Hey guys what about the p4 with hyper threading versa _______?
Im going to buy a computer for x-mas and i need a gaming computer.
Thanks,
Triock
Triock
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AfterDawn Addict
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11. October 2005 @ 13:47 |
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Triock
AMD CPU's offer more bang for the buck, especially when it comes to gaming, but you'll also need a pretty good graphics card as well.
Hyper threading is only good on applications that can appreciate it such as multi threaded applications that are non CPU intensive. Most games if any make little to no use of Hyper threading at all. If you already own a PC PC with a an Intel chip then you should be focusing on the speed of your graphics card. Just because AMD CPU's are better at gaming doesn't mean that a good Intel CPU is bad at it.
The question is, are you building or making use of what you have?
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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Triock
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11. October 2005 @ 17:32 |
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Hey, I am just looking at cpu chips, and i do like the amd 64 but it is a bit pricy.. Do you know anything about the athlon xp? i had that chip until a worm overclocked it to much and fried all my crap up. Well thats what i think...
I am 14, and i need a good gaming computer... Try to stay with me on this ok? I have 50.00 and my parents are going to ''Give me money for X-mas'' for my computer, around 200.00 to 300.00
prob, 350.00 and my father is sending 75.00... so that leaves 450.00... what do i do with this.. i am running my sisters p3 728 megahertz, an 8 mg video and 128 mg of Ram... Help!!!
My dad is a DBA and i branched off of him.. and he might overclock it, he does not like it that much, god knows why???
I could realy use the help... Thanks\
Triock
Triock
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brobear
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11. October 2005 @ 19:03 |
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Get a paper route, talk the grandparents or any other relatives into donating to the cause. Building a PC isn't a cheap process if you want a decent procesor and mobo and want to build with upgrade potential.
$190 for an AMD 3200 processor. A good Asus board like the A8N-SLI Deluxe goes for $165. You probably won't get a decent board for less than $100 if you're thinking of upgrading later. There's $355 for just 2 of the parts needed. Then you have to have things like RAM, a case, power supply (comes with some cases), modem, optical drives, hard drives, graphics card(s), audio card, and a potpourri of miscellaneous things needed for a build. I tallied up a dream build and it ran in excess of $4,000 for the parts (high end parts). http://www.newegg.com is a good site to go to to check out parts prices. By the way, the Athlon 64s are probably what you're looking for if you want a quality processor at reasonable prices. They go from the less expensive up to the higher capacity processors that are more expensive. AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Venice 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model ADA3000BPBOX - Retail $146, the AMD Athlon 64 4000+ ClawHammer 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model ADA4000ASBOX - Retail $372 and the AMD Athlon 64 FX57 San Diego 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model ADAFX57BNBOX - Retail $1011 sort of show the range in prices. There are versions between the ones listed. $146 dollars for a good processor isn't bad at all.
With the 3000 and a less expensive board, you'd still have about $250 invested in the processor and mobo, then you still need all those other parts. So, not to dash your dreams, but it takes money to build a good PC, especially one that can be tinkered with for overclocking and can be readily upgraded. Factory PCs aren't as nice as the custom builds, but they can be cheaper. Check some of the catalogs and major builders for package prices. The budget definitely can affect what you get.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 11. October 2005 @ 19:19
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64026402
Senior Member
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12. October 2005 @ 04:11 |
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For non gaming applications you can usually find a retail PC on sale in your price range. Then add a better video card and better memory as you need.
But if your father can put a PC together then you can do a low end gaming PC for about $450 with more potential as you get more money.
There are decent Nforce4 boards for about $70 which gets you some overclocking ability right off the bat. The best budget gaming video cards are PCIe which fit an NF4 board.
The processor should be a 3000+ venice core like Brobear indicated or a 3500+ venice for about $70 more if the budget were to expand a little.
Get an inexpensive case with power supply then as money allows transplant a better PS.
I am comfortable with the $450 because I am cheap. So I'll do some things that others wouldn't consider. Refurb Newegg parts are useful sometimes. Memory can be cheap until you can afford better.
We can list an array of parts for you but you need to do some research on your own to help you get a feel for what you really want.
Donald
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brobear
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12. October 2005 @ 04:55 |
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Browse Newegg and some similar sites and check out some magazines that cover building PCs. Besides some of what's involved in labor, the parts ads are pretty good to check out as well. Donald made some excellent points on how to go with a lower budget. You don't have to put in top line or even everything you eventually want. The key is to build with the option to upgrade. Simply put, don't do something that will keep you from updating and upgrading in the future. Buying refurbished doesn't mean buying obsolete.
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tophawk
Junior Member
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12. October 2005 @ 09:22 |
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I am VERY new to this
I am building a system myself and wondered if the spec below all works. I wanted to move up to 64 bit sruff
Asus A8N-SLI/Deluxe
AMD Athlon 64 3700+ San Diego Core 64 bit
Geil® Value 2Gb PC3200 Dual Chan DDR Kit
If anyone in the world is up for free advice all would be appreciated
Cheers
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brobear
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12. October 2005 @ 11:11 |
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Good processor and mobo choice. Guess a person has to draw the line somewhere, but I'd spend a few dollars more for the 3800 or 4000 processor; only about $100 more for the latter. As for memory, I like the OCZ Platinum Dual Channel DDR SDRAM. Little costly, but quality memory. I think it is around $250 for 2GB (2 X 1GB). Of course you can probably get other opinions. That's a sound start though, good luck on the build.
BTW, there's not a whole lot of 64 bit stuff to move up to yet. For a while, you'll still be in the world of 32 bit quite often.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. October 2005 @ 11:14
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AfterDawn Addict
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12. October 2005 @ 13:10 |
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tophawk
It all works together just fine, the San Diego 3700 plus is will easily overclock to a 4000+ or higher on that board. You're only going from 2.2 GHZ to 2.4 to get it to match the 4000 plus in speed but you'll actually be a little faster because of your wider frontside bus. I should think that the 3700+ should easily hit even 2.5 GHZ with no threat to your CPU (I'd take it to 2.6). The only problem that you might have is if the value memory can take a wider frontside bus which also stresses memory. Rather than spending more money on the CPU you might want to consider getting better quality CAS2 memory. I might also add that the Venice cores can com very close to matching the speed of the San Diego for about $100 less.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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tophawk
Junior Member
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12. October 2005 @ 13:35 |
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Thanks for that nfo !!
Is the AMD 3700 about the same speed as the Intel Pentium® 4 650 3.4GHz 800FSB LGA 775 CPU EM64T ??
which is priced about the same (I realise that it is a diff board)
AM I GETTIN' OUT OF MY DEPTH HERE ???!!!
Anyway thanks for your tolerance
Cheers
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