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The Official Graphics Card and PC gaming Thread
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AfterDawn Addict
15 product reviews
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2. March 2009 @ 13:48 |
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I think the textures have also been improved, personally. Not a huge amount, but enough to let the improvements to the postprocessing and pre-processing effects completely transform the game's graphics.
Yeah I noticed the level of visual fidelity is slightly higher than in FEAR 1. This is saying a lot for the game too as FEAR is still one of the greatest examples of high res gaming. All the new effects are a welcome addition and add substantial eye candy to a game that was - and still is - a visual masterpiece.
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The gameplay is a mixed bag, as I agree the standard combat isn't quite the same but it does offer a similar level of combat strategy as the original, provided you play on Hard (anything but Hard is a joke).
Agreed. You basically need to turn it to hard to match FEAR 1's normal difficulty. FEAR was one of the few difficult games that I thought needed it for the atmosphere and tension. Turning it any lower breaks it down into a shooting arcade. At hard though, the enemies show much of the same great AI from the original.
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Performance is good for the game, as I played it at 2560x1600 4xAA not even realising that there was no crossfire profile for it. (I played with 9.1, good to see they've added a profile for it now) The performance could be better at that setting before I'd call it smooth, but how many other games do you see running relatively well at 2560x1600 with AA on a single 4870 these days? FEAR always did run well on ATI hardware since the X1000 series, so the sequel should be no exception.
Yes the new drivers make a great difference for me. One card ran it really well and Crossfire was almost overkill. It still drops a bit in intense situations, but I blame that on my 512MB cards. Constantly over 60FPS anyway. Works for me :)
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388 |
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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2. March 2009 @ 19:20 |
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Haha - yeah Sam, there are some things that no words will work for. You tried. That one thing you said, "gorging on pixels" is the strongest phrase which I guess ultimately clicked with me. LOL
Jeff, another brilliant review! "Visual spendor" "close to being a crysis killer" My favorite:: "turned the special effects way up past ridiculous" Hahaha. Another favorite part: "...a falling train car in a collapsing subway tunnel had my whole room shaking as I heard every single piece of concrete and shattered glass fall around me."
Wow! What a beautiful piece of writing!
I want to get the game, despite the few negatives, dumbed-down combat, etc. I just wonder how it would run on the 4850x2. (The real estate deal miraculously saved itself, MAYBE, and if it closes by the end of this month - I may just follow Sam's lead with the dual 4870x2s.) I swear, Estuansis, you could work for some of the gaming magazines - your prose is powerful.
Well, between the two of you guys, sounds like a worthy game - I never played the original because I didn't like the demo - the shootout in the storage room. I didn't like the environment of that room. But I must have missed the essence of it, because everybody else keeps talking about the game!
I just finished catalyst hell, and no fault of Ati. I finally concluded that Spearhead - and only Spearhead - will not run on a 3850 agp card. For no good reason it freezes. I can run on safe mode, looking very ugly, 480 x 640 if you can believe, 16 bit colors and textures - UGLY - and it freezes. ATT is telling me 20% cpu and 20% gpu load. I can kill ATT, CCC and almost everything else, and it still freezes. Max resolution is only 1280x1024. I removed the game, and re-installed it. It freezes. Spearhead is one of the two expansion packs for the original Medal of Honor Allied Assault from the "Infinity Ward" 2015 group that created the Medal of Honor series for EA, before they packed up, formed Infinity Ward, and headed over to Activision to do COD. Before they left they did the expansion pack called Breakout, which runs ok at max 1280x1024 (I have to kill all background except for ATT - I love having that on-screen display when I want to check fps, gpu temp and fan speed, and load on cpu and gpu.) And I can run Allied Assault itself on 1600x1200 killing everything - it won't even start if I leave ATT running.
But Spearhead - no. Funny because I got through the first section and only had trouble when I met up with the Brits and we went to drive the nazis out of the house with the cannon, on our way to do the bridge. I reloaded the game. I reloaded Catalyst. I found the 9.1 Catalyst with the hotfix for 3800 agp card - I thought - "There's my problem, the agp version of the card is creating problems."
It freezes. Nothing works. The game won't run!! Bizarre. But it's the worst of the series anyway - it was Spearhead the one review talked about when they said "Spearhead showed us that the guys from 2015 had gone" "Let's see how EA does with Pacific Assault."
And I already played it before on my x850xtpe (zero problems) so no big loss. It was okay, maybe 6/10.
On a more positive note, I was testing Breakout. At one time I got some temporary freezing, blasting things from a tank. That caused me to turn off ATT. But later testing allowed me to turn ATT back on, and I am running with everything maxed, only 30% loads, max of 1280x1024.
Breakout is amazing! That's all I can say!
It starts with an absolutely intense, gripping level of fighting in a SEVERE sandstorm in the African desert, with visibility of about 20 feet. On the big dell, words don't do the experience justice. I need the power of Estuansis' prose.
Let me just say - a mind-blowing sandstorm plodding battle, that two hours later made me want to go drink quarts of cold water and bathe in Nivea to get over my severe de-hydration and parched skin.
Thank god for the quick save feature or I would have gone nuts playing the level over and over again - extremely boring on some of those games, like Far Cry, where on hardest setting, an enemy, lurking noiselessly in waiting, kills you after an hour of extreme intensity, just before the save point.
For 15 minutes I couldn't get out of one trench and past a burnt out truck, before they massed on me - one time I yelled out loud past my headphones, "What is this, a f**king party!" Lol. Finally I figured out to drop back behind the wire to the trench when they started rushing.
Anyway, the Quick-Save makes the impossible, possible. It took me 10 tries even to survive the first five minutes when the Captain drops me off in his jeep and hightails it out of there, telling me to "Punch a hole through, Sergeant." My character has to have one helluva reputation for him to have confidence of me being able to push through that sandstorm hell.
At one point I had 5 life and because of a mistake - I jumped into a tank with lots of life and thought that was me - I kept on going. Later, when I jumped out of the almost-destryed tank and saw my 5 life "WTF!" I had zero space for mistakes and I played better than possible - advancing inches at a time, peering deep into that sandstorm for the slightest shadow of a figure - coming around corners of the trenches with the itchiest of trigger fingers.
That was the Infinity Ward expansion pack - and what a helluva game and what a helluva immersive experience on the big Dell. Even at 1280x1024 - (keeping aspect ratio, using catalyst to expand to full height) - I would have to give it a 9.6/10 overall, exceeded only by COD4 which I think I gave a 9.8. Un-f**king believable - the kind of thing we rabid games (excluding boat club boozer lol) live for!
Rich
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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2. March 2009 @ 19:43 |
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The funny thing is that FEAR 2 really isn't that far behind Crysis in terms of visual quality. It's more consistent, has working AA (though they fixed that in Warhead) and is really wonderful to look at. I its best areas, Crysis still wins out, but not by a huge amount, and as I said, a 1GB HD4870 can run the game at literally absolute max with only a very minor lack of fluidity, it doesn't really ever lag, just drops to perhaps 25-30fps, which is hardly problematic in the way Crysis' frame rate is. The only real problem with FEAR 2 is the saving, which like the first game, completely locks the system for a second or two whilst it's taking place. Very few games still suffer this problem, so that's disappointing. Quicksave and Quickload has ben removed, the saving grace of which perhaps is heightened difficulty. Sadly, the autosave points are now much more frequent as a result. Console anyone?
Now that CF has been enabled in the game, an HD4850X2 would almost certainly max the game out at 2560 with no issues whatsoever.
It was actually a bus Estuansis (assuming we're talking about the same thing) but that section is definitely what MAKES the game. The water falling off is beautifully rendered, and the noise it makes when it falls and the effect on your screen is truly something right out of a theme park ride.
The HD3800 series had a lot of compatibility issues with older games, including the PCIe ones (and even some newer ones). I'm pleased to say the HD4800 series has fixed these issues (it was not drivers, it's specific to the card). Compatibility with ancient titles is still not perfect, but the HD4800s are much better than the 3850/3870 for running non-current games, and all games in general.
On another note, I stuck the Zalman PSU back in my system. Man, I'd forgotten how quiet the thing is. The electrical whine from the chokes on the X2 has reappeared from the fog of fan airflow noise. I'm also curious to see what effect the PSU will have on my chipset heat issues. On one hand, the lower PSU fan speed means lower airflow through the system, but on the other hand, lower PSU fan speed means less air being sucked up from the graphics cards past the chipset...
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. March 2009 @ 19:46
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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2. March 2009 @ 20:58 |
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Good point, Sam. Your NB overheating turned out to be the cause of the perplexing BSODs as I recall. I asked you one time about a North Bridge additional cooler and as I recall you had already tried something like that - hadn't you?
So the whine of the x2 chokes has emerged from the reduced airflow noise cacophony - hahahaha - is that a good thing or a bad? - just kidding.
The Zalman sounds like a terrific product - hope that chipset overheating problem doesn't re-emerge. I take it your PSU is at the top of the Lexa case - for a bottom-mounted PSU there would be no side benefit to the faster fan on the HX - am I right about that?
Regarding Fear2, Jeff remembered train, but it was actually a bus falling down that shook the earth? "Right out of a theme park ride!" Wow! I'll have to get that game!
Both of you guys are good with the words!
It sounds like an epic event - wonder how my 5.1 Medusas will render it? Probably not as good as the sound systems you guys have - for one thing my whole body won't actually shake with the pounding of woofer reverberation! LOL
So the Spearhead freezing was a card issue, the 3850 itself was the culprit - nothing to do with drivers. That began to occur to me - everything else had been mostly ruled out. That's a relief to know, I suppose. Even more of a relief to hear that the 4000 series doesn't suffer as much from those problems.
Ultimately, this has shown me that I guess I still don't understand much about the concepts of gpu architecture. I would have thought that the Spearhead programmers would write their code using routines in the shader and dx8 libraries - and as long as they conformed to open gl specs I would wonder why a particular card would have a problem with a particular title.
Are we saying that something about the architecture of the shader 3 HD 3800, rather than helping it blaze through older shader 2 games, actually had the unforeseen consequence of limiting its ability to process those simpler data streams? And this was an architecture incompatibility that a driver fix couldn't address? Did Ati become aware of this and consciously took it into account in designing the 4000 family?
Rich
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4 product reviews
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2. March 2009 @ 21:55 |
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It's not that I'd already tried a different chipset cooler, it's that I can't really use one. Removing the chipset heatsink means removing the Vreg heatsink, and I don't really want to overclock a quad core without a heatsink for the Vregs, so my only option is to cut up the stock solution, i.e. void the warranty on a £200 motherboard.... :S
The Zalman 850W units are incredible. They're well priced, the quietest at idle of any PSU I know (Corsair HX/VX/TX, Seasonic S12, Antec Earthwatts and BeQuiet DarkPower included). I think the only quieter unit will be the Seasonic M12, and they have a steeper noise curve than the Zalmans. Runing at around 450W load the unit still remains dead silent after hours of use. Not tested continuous load at full 700W yet.
My PSU is indeed at the top. A faster PSU fan would potentially be productive in a bottom-mount scenario - as long as there was a bottom intake fan (for quad CF, side would suffice for a single card), the fan being at the back would suck in the ambient air produced by the bottom X2's auxiliary heatsink and stop the bottom of the case getting hot (as you may know, the Lexa is elevated on feet, and if I hold the bottom of the case at the back it's warm body temperature to the touch from all the heat coming out of the side coolers on the X2s). I don't think it would really be of any major benefit though, as I haven't heard of any stability issues by this part of the case heating up. If anything, the best thing you could do with a case with two X2s is block off the top from the bottom and run an exhaust fan round the side at the back, so the hot air from the X2s doesn't warm up the chipset. My chipset temps rose about 7 celsius when I first put an HD4870 in the top slot, let alone having an X2 there and another uunderneath.
I'll get you a screenie of the bus in FEAR 2 (but won't spoil the moment, you'll get the 'before' shot haha)
I'll be honest with you, you know as much as I do about why the HD3800 series doesn't play ball with some titles, it perplexed me from the length I had the card....
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Senior Member
2 product reviews
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3. March 2009 @ 08:32 |
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Hey guys me again
From you interesting reviews, looks like I'll have to check out FEAR 2, but I might wait until I actually play FEAR 1, which I have but didnt play yet
On another note, I installed Burnout Paradise yesterday and played for like 4 hours
I love burnout and this port really made me happy with the devs/producers
I cranked all the settings as high as they would go on 1280x800 (SSAO turned off), and I get a butter smooth 45 FPS, in areas with a lot of traffic this drop to the high 30s
Really pleased, as the game looks very nice visually, especially when you get wrecked and it goes into slow-motion mode and shows various parts of the car crumple like the hood
Good physics there
I'm a big fan one the Burnout series and this is a recent that port that has really lived up to my expectations, much better then other recent ports *cough* GTA *cough* ;)
Also, managed to get 3DMark96 today, so I will see what score I get with stock GPU clocks
(+[_]%) 1: 2.60 > 2.80 > 2.81 >3.03 > 1.50 > 3.52M33 > 3.52M33-4 > 3.90M33 > 3.90M33-3 > 4.01M33 > 4.01M33-2 > 5.00M33 > 5.00M33-3
My GAMING LAPTOP!! : Acer Aspire 5930G - P8400 2.26Ghz//4 GB DDR2//GeForce 9600M GT 512MB GDDR3
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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3. March 2009 @ 15:33 |
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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3. March 2009 @ 19:08 |
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Sam, the weird way that the older games runs on the 3850 is hard to understand.
Breakthrough, which I have been describing, (with that unbelievable sandstorm level) has a scene before they finish with the desert, where you are at the end of the bunker getting ready to blow up the munitions depot. As I entered the end of the hallway, where there are two rooms loaded with about 15 nazis, I suddenly felt major lag - I looked up and saw my ATT OSD, on-screen display, registering 11 fps.
I quit the program, deleted all background tasks, and went back to my last quick save. "Ah hah - back to over 30 fps" I told myself, with immense satisfaction, until I moved 2 more feet - again 12 fps this time - and I could not yet peer into the two rooms loaded with all those nazis. Nothing was going on, and my fps had dropped to 12 from over 30 in two feet of movement!
That made me think of what you just said - perplexing!!!
I understood your NB cooler situation this time - to improve from stock you'd have to cut off just that part of the heat sink which also fits the Vregs, voiding your mobo warranty. Well then, why not jury-rig a little tiny 40mm fan secured by a length of coat hangar wire - pointed right at that NB heatsink? Or if you don't like that idea, how about a length of flex tubing pulling in outside air from one of the front fans - pouring it out right on the nb sink? It sounds to me like that NB needs some special treatment!
I couldn't quite follow you on the fan placement for bottom-mounted PSU. So here are some pictures to explain my situation. Let's say I have the 850 zalman at the bottom of the Antec 1200 which is still priced at only $129 at microcenter.
As I have shown in the picture, the antec has three front intake fans, an optional side door intake, a top vent 200mm exhaust, 2 rear exhausts and the PSU makes 4 exhausts, and 4 intakes. The PSU is placed upside down, sucking maybe some of the 4870x2 heat from just above it and directing that out the back. There is a mount for an optional fan blowing right on the graphics cards - I picked up extra fans for the two optional positions.
So given that scenario - would you have me place a piece of non-conductive plexiglass, horizontally positioned, let's say - between the two back exhaust fans, allowing the lower exhaust fan to service the two 4870x2 cards, and the upper rear exhaust plus top exhaust to service the mobo chipset area? Or am I already well-enough serviced by two upper rear exhausts and a ceiling exhaust pulling that hot air out before the chipset can warm up so I don't need to consider horizontally paritioning the case?
You mention bottom intake fan. Are you proposing the following mod:
If you think that would be a good idea, I could mod some feet on that case, and I could mod a 120mm bottom intake fan just beyond the zalman PSU if there is room - I recall the zalman is extra long but I imagine there is space.
The part I didn't quite understand was this:
Originally posted by sam:
If anything, the best thing you could do with a case with two X2s is block off the top from the bottom and run an exhaust fan round the side at the back, so the hot air from the X2s doesn't warm up the chipset.
You're not talking about an exhaust fan on the side behind the motherboard, are you?
Anyway, regards partitioning the case horizontally - do you think that plexiglass idea has merit? Or am I going to be good with the big 200mm top exhaust and the two top rear 120mm exhausts:
Hey Ray, you're like me - I haven't played Fear 1 yet either. I might skip it and go right to Fear 2. Yeah, let's see what your 3dmark6 scores are with that gaming laptop - I'm going to make a wild guess, 11000.
Nice charts Sam - 4870x2 in general kicks ass at 2560x1600 and never falls below 30, unlike the green guys.
Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. March 2009 @ 19:14
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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3. March 2009 @ 19:25 |
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The HD3850 only has 256MB of RAM, correct? (As far as I know, all AGP cards are limited to 256MB due to the bus). Even at 1600x1200, it's not too hard to break that limit if a game uses high quality textures.
I've already attached a fan to the northbridge (but no half measures here, a 3500rpm 92mm screamer), and it had zero effect - it was sucking the hot air from the 4870X2 and blowing THAT over the northbridge - there was plenty of air moving, but it was very warm air moving around, you can't cool something by blowing hot air over it! Reversing the fan did not seem to change as the only direction the air has to go is hit the cooler of the X2 and bounce back up, same problem recurs.
Running a tube from anywhere else to the NB would be equally ineffectual unless the GPUs were isolated in a chamber from the rest of the system. The solution that did the trick was upping the side case fan speed. Sticking one of Russ' 50dB Silverstones there dropped the chipset temps by 20 celsius, enough to raise the chipset voltage to +0.25 (enough to get 3.87Ghz) but no higher.
The chamber idea with the 1200 would make sense, but you have to have exhaust air going out. A Zalman PSU on its own wouldn't be enough to do that. It's a tricky balance, as two 4870X2s rely on an intake fan nearby or they will get very hot, yet they also dump a lot of heat into the case that has to go somewhere. The side fan on the Antec cases is right at the back, when it would be better placed in the middle as it is on the NZXT Lexa.
The mod you mention in the second diagram is exactly how my case is laid out at stock, but there's only an 80mm fan at the bottom.
What I meant by the quote was a side fan in the normal position, exactly where it is on the Antec, and you'd have the side intake fan further along, nearer the front of the case. Preferably also at different heights to avoid the air going straight in and straight out.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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3. March 2009 @ 21:14 |
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No Sam, the agp 3850 has 512mb memory, unlike the gecube which had only 256mb. That was the surprising thing about it, when Powercolor first announced the agp adaptation. (As to whether that memory is being completely utilized given the agp adaptation - that I couldn't comment on.) Furthermore, Breakthrough, the expansion, is limited to only 1280x1024, (whereas the original runs up to 1600x1200, hahaha). So at that resolution, it's certainly not a texture memory issue, is it?
By the way, on a positive note, dispite the bizarre slowdowns, even at 1280x1024, Breakthrough scales up nicely, keeping 4:3 aspect ratio, to full size on the Dell 30". The image is nice - not COD2 nice, but acceptable for an older title. And like I was enthusing before - that desert sandstorm level just blew me away (pun intended hahaha.)
Well, forgive me for doubting you for a second, and thinking you might employ half measures - you had a 92mm 3500rpm screamer pointed straight at the NB little bugger. And when that didn't work you turned it around. Still no go.
Quote:
Running a tube from anywhere else to the NB would be equally ineffectual unless the GPUs were isolated in a chamber from the rest of the system.
Well, but how about a tube running all the way over to some part of the Hard Drive case, with a little 40mm fan pumping in air - or the fan could be at the NB end of the tube just as well I think. Certainly the hard drive part of the case must not be THAT hot - I know you have some front intake fans on the Lexa, right?
(Right now I am maybe the king of the flex tube people having adapted the sunbeam kit to pull fresh air in from the side onto my p4 hsf. LOL)
Ok, regarding the fan mods - I am with you regarding the bottom feet and the bottom intake - your Lexa has a stock 80mm intake. I can do that, or a 120 if I have room.
Regarding the side door:
Take a look at the new fuschia colored comments - skip the partition for a second.
Side door fans: If I follow you, you believe the side door intake fan should be forward of where antec has it, but you did want a fan where they do have theirs - as an exhaust fan I take it.
So to confirm, you are recommending the new fan - A - be an intake, slightly above the other fan so they don't push in and pull out immediately, with the standard optional fan B as an exhaust fan? Am I following you?
Partition: Back up top of the diagram to the partition - is my indicated positioning of a horizontal piece of plexiglass roughly correct - horizontally between the two rear exhaust fans?
With this partitioning, I am looking at the airflow of each section of the case.
Bottom of case airflow: I see that the bottom section, with the hot dual 4870x2 cards, is fed fresh air in, by the bottom modded intake, the new side door modded intake, and the two standard front intakes, (which get a little boost from the optional middle fan mounted behind the hard drive case which blows straight on the cards.) So we've got four intake fans. Airflow is aided by two exhaust fans - the lower back exhaust, and the side door exhaust fan B. For a little bit of balance, I could make sure those two exhausts are 1600 rpm fans - scythe S-flex now has a fourth speed I think - is it 1900 rpm?
Top of Case Airflow: If I am right so far about the bottom part of the case, then above the partition, the motherboard chipset is fed by the top front intake fan, and exhausted by the upper back exhaust, plus the ceiling exhaust. So in that case we've got one intake, and two exhausts - one being the huge 200mm. That might not be enough intakes. So here's a thought:
More upper intake: Maybe, as shown above, the upper back exhaust should be turned around and become an intake - so the chipset part of the case gets intake from upper rear and upper front, and exhaust from top ceiling fan.
Is this what you had in mind? Do you think this might work?
Rich
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4 product reviews
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3. March 2009 @ 21:23 |
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I doubt it is used, there have been loads of AGP versions of 512MB cards and every one of them has had 256MB, as the maximum aperture size for AGP is 256MB.
At 1280x1024 though it probably isn't a memory issue.
There is a front fan in the Lexa but it is behind a panel, dust filter and the hard drives, so its benefit other than providing air for the HDDs is minimal, it wouldn't be suitable for such a purpose as it has no pressure whatsoever unless I turn it to the max of 1600rpm, which is a bit on the noisy side for me.
The way you've laid the fans out in that section is much better, but since the mesh on the 1200 vertically spans almost the entire length of the window, this case probably wouldn't be suitable for such a mod.
There's little point placing a partition in the higher spot, as the chipset sits below it, all you've done is isolate the top fans from any of the components.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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3. March 2009 @ 22:57 |
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Quote:
The way you've laid the fans out in that section is much better, but since the mesh on the 1200 vertically spans almost the entire length of the window, this case probably wouldn't be suitable for such a mod.
Sam, are you telling me the part that looks like a mesh is not solid - it actually IS a mesh? If that is true, I have to say Duhhh - I had no idea. I thought it was solid. (I haven't yet pulled the case out of the box.)
Dropping the partition: Let's say I drop the partition to just above the expansion slots which is where you want it, and let's say I drop that modded side fan also so it blows on the cards below the partition.
The exhaust fan is within the mesh providing extra exhaust pressure through the mesh. Coming in are the bottom mod, the bottom front door and part of the middle front door, and the new modded side door fan. Blowing out is only the PSU and the side door exhaust, but the mesh is open. How does that sound?
For the top section, I now have two rear exhausts and a ceiling exhaust, and just the top front intake, and part of the middle intake. Is that out of balance? How about bringing fresh air in through the lower rear fan.
Does that make sense or should I diagram it again?
Does open mesh defeat partitioning?: Are you saying that the open mesh interferes with the partioning? Part of the mesh will span both partitions.
As long as there is positive pressure in each "box" so that air is not sucked into the case through the mesh, why does the mesh hurt the sectioning?
Case can be modded with solid plexiglass door: But if you think it does, there was a you-tube video on a 1200 case mod that replaced that whole door with a solid piece of plexiglass, and I can do the same mod, and add whatever fan(s) I want.
Should I do the solid door YouTube 1200 mod? Are we going to add two fans to that solid door, in roughly the place I show them? The front will be intake, and the rear exhaust? That leaves us with bottom intake, front door bottom intake, side door front intake, and side door back exhaust and psu exhaust. Does that sound like good airflow for the dual 4870x2s?
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4 product reviews
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3. March 2009 @ 23:02 |
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Yes, it's a mesh, at least it is on the 900, and the reviews indicate it still is on the 1200.
I have a feeling that two fans that close together may create an unwelcome tunnel, but they may be enough to get the job done.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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4. March 2009 @ 13:01 |
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Sam, for a much more meaningful discussion, it made sense to pull the case down from the shelf of the garage, and take it out of the box. (What a beauty!!)
Since it's kind of an important subject, how to actually get quad cf to work in the real world, with Sam leading the way, I apologize to everybody, (particularly Ray lol) but what follows is a long post with a lot of images, all based now on the actual Antec 1200 case measurements.
So getting right into it: Here's the real story on the door. It's not an open mesh, but could be if one were to unscrew the plastic inset.
. . . . . . . . . . . 
Maybe the 900 has an open mesh, but they sealed the mesh on the 1200. As I say, there is a plastic inset that is screwed on from the inside, which completely covers the mesh, and also provides a mount for an intake fan. It clearly is designed to be an intake fan, because it has a removable fine mesh filter, although nothing of course prevents us from turning it around and using it as an exhaust fan. And that sounds like what you are advising me to do.
I see clearly that this case is very designed for positive pressure inside pushing the air out - there are some open mesh vents on the back, plus every card slot cover is vented. Despite all the exhaust fans, they expect more air to be coming in through those three front fans, and optional side intake.
Since we are going to turn the side intake into an exhaust, that brings us back to your excellent quad cf mod idea of adding an additional intake fan on the case floor, like you already have on the Lexa.
There is just enough room behind that long Zalman PSU for a 120mm. I measured 13.5" to the inside edge of the hard drive cage. The Zalman 1000 PSU - the only one newegg stocks - is 8.3" leaving 5.2" of room. So if I mount a 120mm intake fan on the floor right behind the Zalman, that gives me 1/2" of spacing before the hard drive cage floor - I'll catch a bit of the leading edge of the drive overhang, but the drives are elevated 1/4" anyway, so I should have good air flow without too much noise.
Let's take a closer look at this door:
The door explains the two different areas of the case we are trying to isolate from each other.
The see-through part of the door is the actual space we have to work with - the dark part of the door on the left is the top-to-bottom wall of the hard drive cage.
Let's look closer at the bottom "box" where the graphics cards reside.
I see now Sam that you are a genius. I really don't think there is enough exhaust venting in that bottom "box" where the graphics cards are generating so much heat.
Whether I add a plexiglass partition or not, as you have mentioned before and now I am beginning to understand, the top 4870x2 graphics card in the number one card slot effectively partitions the case. The case is designed to be about two inches wider than the graphics cards (unlike my current very narrow case) but those long cards reach almost all the way back to the hard drive cages.
So if the side door fan were left as an intake fan, the bottom "box" is fed air by the bottom two front intake fans, and by the side intake fan. (However the front intake fans are partially blocked by hard drives. I plan to put three hard drives in the very bottom cage, blocking only the bottom front intake fan.)
But the only active exhaust is out the psu vent with the slow moving Zalman fan, plus some passive vent meshing on the back. That leaves us a little short on exhaust possibilities for the giant amount of heat from two 4870x2 cards. However if we turn the side intake fan into an exhaust fan, as you are suggesting, then we have two front intakes, balanced by a side exhaust and slow moving PSU exhaust plus the passive vents. That side exhaust might need to be one of the faster moving 120s - maybe 1600 rpm or more.
If we add the modded floor intake fan, right behind the PSU, per the prior post, adding some legs to lift up the case like your Lexa,
now we have real fresh air intake with three fans - the two lower front fans (the bottom of which however is quite blocked by three hard drives) and the floor intake. We probably really need that floor intake, if we turn the side into an exhaust. I can always play with the fan speeds to make sure there is always positive pressure, and make sure all the 4870x2 card heat is being evacuated from the case.
I could also give the middle front intake fan a "boost" taking a cue from what antec has done with the top front intake fan, which by the way, is the only fan feeding our top "box." Mounted behind the top fan, inside the case, on the opposite end of the hard drive cage, is a place for an additional fan, blowing on the cpu hsf.
With no drives in that cage, the 2nd fan provides a completely open 2-fan "wind tunnel" that feeds the upper "box" with the cpu and chipsets.
I know a second fan is not going to double the cfm - for the most part the 2nd fan will slip in the wake of the first - but for sure the 2nd fan will be able to overcome any drag by the walls of the hard drive cage allowing us to get maximum cfm through the little "tunnel." Maybe we'll get a 20% cfm boost that way - anything will be helpful. Again that is something that could be played with - how to get max cfm and minimum noise - two medium speed 120s, on each end of the tunnel, or just one high speed 120 in the front? What's your experience been, Sam, with those kinds of tradeoffs?
So I could do the same wind tunnel thing with the middle front intake fan.
I would have three hard drives, all in the lowest cage, blocking the bottom front intake fan. One would be a small C, windows 98, and maybe xp swap file, and the other two would be a 1.3 TeraByte Raid0 D drive with xp, vista and windows 7. At the very top of the case I would have my dvd burner, and maybe a fan controller/temp sensor.
So the middle and top front fans would be completely unblocked, and I could make two-fan wind tunnels out of both of them.
Now let's look at the top "box" where the motherboard and chipset reside:
The top "box" is well vented by three exhaust fans - one of them the large 200mm on the top of the case. What about fresh air?
The only fresh air is coming in the front, through the completely unblocked top front fan, with a second fan creating a wind tunnel. With three exhausts, and only one intake, I have a feeling I might not have positive pressure in the top of the case. It sounds to me like the top "box" is going to want to suck air in from the bottom "box" which might be a good thing.
. . . . . . . . . 
Unless I actually put a piece of plexiglass, the two "boxes" are open to each other the length of the 4870x2 card, from the top edge of the card furthest from the motherboard, to the side door, probably about a 2" gap.
That gap could allow some of the 4870x2 heat to rise into the chipset top "box" particularly if there is significant positive pressure in the bottom "box" and negative suction in the top box.
But, as I say, I don't know if that would be bad. There is a ton of overkill exhaust venting in the top box, and sucking up some of the overload from the bottom box might not hurt, and would hopefully not add to the chipset temperature.
On the subject of chipset temps, Sam, how are you getting the Northbridge temperature which you mentioned that dropped 20 degrees when you added one of Russ' 50 db Silverstones. Is that a motherboard function, which a utility like Speedfan can monitor, or are you using temperature probes, like available on the Scythe fan controller?
Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. March 2009 @ 13:49
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4. March 2009 @ 14:51 |
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So it's not just protective film, there's a hard plastic cover there? That is different to the Nine Hundred's side panel, which looks like this:
You'll also note dust filters have been added to the panel, which makes a lot of sense.
Don't forget I removed the dust filter on the side panel for my case for when I used a exhaust fan at the side (the passive X1900 and Asus HD3870 worked better this way). Unfortunately, I lost the dust filter, which is annoying, not because of the dust, but because mounting a fan with the hub on the outside (i.e. intake) straight to a plastic window creates a horrible 28R vibration (yes, it's high!)
You have to bear in mind that most of my issues are solved simply by brute force intake airflow. As I run my case for silence, and it's somewhat smaller than the Twelve Hundred, my intake airflow is lower (though I do have a bottom 80mm intake, I used to have a top 80m intake too, but big power supplies are too long to fit a regular 80x25mm fan there. I'd have to get a slim 10mm one to fit above the PSU.
If you a) have faster intake fans and/or b) use a better chipset cooler (so get the X48T-DQ6 instead of the DS5) you probably won't ecounter the issue at all, or not until much later.
Newegg stock the 850W Zalman:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817379007
but it is indeed the same giant size.
Check this picture out comparing it to the standard-size Corsair HX 520W. I'm pretty sure my Antec EarthWatts 380W unit is even smaller than this.
A little more on the power supply, I leant down behind the ZM850 after having played two hours of Defense Grid the other day (a CF-enabled game, though I suspect probably with just 2 GPUs, that's all that's needed) and the fan noise was about the same as the HX 1000W at idle, I could hear the fan was spinning at around 1000rpm as it had a slight bearing tick. Not much to shout about though, especially not over the fans on the X2s.
You might wonder why I make so much of a big deal of this cooling and noise issue when the X2 fans are so loud I can just turn the fans up anyway for when I want to game. Honestly, I much prefer having a silent (or near-silent) system at idle, and though I'm willing to allow a relatively high noise level to run Quad CF, I like the process to be automatic. With the Zalman PSU and the 4870X2s, the noisy fans cut right down within seconds of closing a game, and the room becomes quiet again, save for the hum of my server's six hard drives :)
To have a system that does this all itself is great, I can't be bothered with having to turn a load of dials up whenever I want to play a game. Might not seem much to ask, but after a while it gets tedious.
You have me confused on one issue regarding your side door diagram. You say the top card creates a partition. Perhaps I misunderstand, as it certainly does not with respect to the side fan. Air blowing in from the side fan will pass over the top graphics card and past the chipset, up through the CPU cooler and out the two rear fans. The only partition it creates is that you can't see any of the motherboard underneath.
This older and somewhat messier picture shows how much space there is between the edge of the card and the side panel of my case.
You've got the right idea about the airflow restrictions down there, the front intake fans will still do their job but where does the air end up after that? Blowing round the top of the cards, or into the power supply.
If there's one sure-fire way of making a PSU get loud, it's throwing heat into it. Back when I had the X1900 and E4300 with a total system draw of only 180W compared to today's 700, because my Freezer 7 Pro would onlt fit blowing upwards straight into the Thermaltake Toughpower PSU, even opening a CPU loading program on a single core would send the PSU fan to maximum speed, a rather rough 45+dB at 1900rpm (140mm fan)
The maximum speed of the Zalman's 140mm fan is actually lower than that, but even so, SPCR rated it at 40dB on max load. Good for most PSUs, but bad in general!
The bottom intake fan is one way of solving the problem, but I can't help but wonder, in the case of so much intake airflow, whether it would be better off as an exhaust fan, depending on where it is placed. The reason I use a front intake fan is to cool GPU2. As you saw in my oldr photo, in the bottom slot the bottom case fan and intake fan for the lower X2 are practically joined together. This means the lower graphics card draws air directly from the floor of the room rather than the case. In the Antec Twelve Hundred, however, there is the PSU beneath the graphics cards, which renders this approach redundant. An additional exhaust at the lower level (if big enough, remember, if you're going for a mod it needn't be an 80mm fan, it could be 92 or even 120 if there's space) could create a direct tunnel at the lower end blowing through the lower hard disk cage, down and out the bottom. It's counter-intuitive blowing warm air out the bottom of a case, but it's worth a try.
I never agreed with the push-pull two fan approach on the hard disk cage unless said cage is filled with hard disks, and even then it doesn't offer much help, there's only so much air that can get through a small gap with a certain level of pressure.
I think the plexiglass partition could still do wonders for you since you have a full size 120mm intake fan at the top, a luxury I would not have unless I bought a Kama Bay or similar. Previously, I have had two fan controllers and/or a DVD drive. The DVD drive is not currently in my system, and since I'm buying Shaff's Rheobus extreme I could potentially end up with the requisite three front 5.25" bays free to install one - an exceptionally tempting idea, as I'm pretty convinced that would do wonders for my heat issues on the chipset. Thing is, to do that I would really need more exhaust airflow, as having removed the blanking plates for the front, if I open my case door and stick my hand in there, I can feel the heat trying to escape. It should really want to suck air in, not blow it out. Since I'm only using a 1000rpm (usually less) rear fan, I have some space to work with before noise becomes an issue on that front.
The one problem you will have with the plexiglass partition is, ironically, the bottom-mount PSU. The power cables still have to reach the top. There is enough room 'beneath' the X2s, i.e. flush along the motherboard, to run cables, as that's how I hide my S-ATA, S-ATA power, PCIe power and front panel connections. However, you have to run a 4-pin ATX connector, usually, to the top left, and if you run it round and along it's very unlikely to reach. You will have to experiment on how best to solve that problem without having an ugly cable running diagonally across the case.
Keeping all the HDDs in the bottom cage would be the best plan as that keeps them out of the way of the heat of the graphics cards, and out of the way of throwing any heat at the chipset. You will definitely need some exhaust for that heat though, as if they're older drives, that's another 30-40W of heat being hurled at the graphics cards. The HD4870X2 is quite resilient to heat, but the components around it are what you have to be careful of!
Another idea you could perhaps experiment with is adding whichever fans fit on the little vent at the back, and pulling the rubber WC hose ports off, for a little more exhaust airflow, you might be able to mount two 40mm fans there. Keep the speed moderate, perhaps 2000rpm or so, and that should give you some better airflow. Not sure how well that'd work, as I don't have any means to try it.
If you have a single DVD drive, then the top box can't hold a fourth 120mm fan, whih is perhaps a shame, but if you keep the speed of the top fan you do have relatively high, perhaps the medium setting (which on the Nine Hundred is 1600rpm) (Scratch that, they're on analog controller dials now aren't they?) then that, combined with the two rear 120mm and the top 200mm fans should give you ample airflow to keep the chipset happy. Word of waring though, that's a massive amount of pressure differential, two 120s and a 200 exhausting and only one 120 blowing in. One wonders what effect turning one of the rear 120s round to intake would have. Probably not a good one, as the heat from the cards, the PSU, the little 40mm fan mod will all rise up and be sucked in if you use the lower one, and if you use the top one you'd probably create a circuit. However, the rear 120mm fans are an absolute doddle to remove, so it's an easy experiment.
The gap idea would send the hot air from the X2s rising up into the upper chamber, and if you are leaving a gap, what's the point of the partition, aside from that horizontal gap, the 4870X2 is its own partition as we previously discussed.
Ultimately there are too many variables and possibilities here to say what might work best without a bit of hands-on. There are plenty of ideas here though, and I'm sure you'll find a solution that works brilliantly. As long as I keep my CPU at 3.65 I can get away with 800rpm on my three 120mm fans without much of an issue. If you get the better-cooled X48T-DQ6, who knows, you could probably just shove the cards in, run all the fans at minimum speed and it'd all work spectacularly even at a big CPU overclock.
I measure my motherboard chipset temperature using Everest.
Phew, what a post!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. March 2009 @ 20:01
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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4. March 2009 @ 19:58 |
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Hi Sam.
Well, regarding the side door fan - it is tilted 45 degrees, and the upper point lines up with the top slot, the lower point the bottom slot. So I figured that even as an intake, it wouldn't feed the chipset. Maybe I was wrong about that. Are you saying that because of the gap - the upper card really doesn't partition that completely - so that's how the air gets up there?
But aren't we wanting to turn it around and use it as an exhaust?
Oh, but now you're thinking - try the floor fan maybe as an exhaust. Interesting. Okay, in that case, leave the side as an intake? That's three intakes - two fronts and side, and exhaust on floor, slow exhaust PSU and passive exhaust vents. But I see you're suggesting a couple of little 40s on the passive vents for some extra graphic card compartment exhaust. Sounds like a plan - you like the Tate Loon fans, is that right? Anyway, yes, blowing the hot air out the bottom is certainly counter-intuitive I agree, but like you say - who knows, it might work. Hahaha.
Well, if you think the plexiglass partition idea might be good, I can certainly pick something up and silicone it in place (easy to remove if I apply the silicone lightly.) Maybe I'd have to drill some kind of hole in it for the 4 pin atx connector. So the front top intake 120mm fan then will feed the motherboard and chipset, and then I have two 120 exhausts and a 200mm exhaust. Am I not way overbalanceed with so much exhaust? Oh, I see, yes you agree - way overbalanced. I too had the idea of the lower exhaust turned into an intake, but I neglected to factor in that it would end up probably sucking in the heat pouring out the back of the case - good point. I hadn't thought about that. You're right.
So without the DVD you'd actually like me to put another 120 up there for better balance? Interesting. Is the chipset really going to need that much flow? If it works out that the front fan, running at a good clip, provides enough flow with just the top 200 exhausting, I guess I could always shut off one or more of the 120mm rear exhaust fans. I would need to keep the 200 running in any event to keep dust out of the case.
The idea of the gap, was not to place plexiglass in there with a gap, but I was agreeing with you, just the card itself provides a partition with a gap. So my point was, maybe see how that works, and allow all the extra top exhaust suction to help a bit with the graphic card heat - provided the chipset temps don't start rising.
To then compare that to a solid partition, I could rig something temporary - just a piece of cardboard would work I suppose - and see what happens to all the various temps, before I went to the trouble of getting the plexiglass.
Everest is like speedfan, is that right - a motherboard monitor. I'll make a note of that, and the X48T-DQ6 board too. Thanks for all the effort behing that long post.
Speaking about silencing - I know you don't like things to be loud. But you're allowing the case to get pretty boisterous with all that power gaming you're doing now with that killer system. How are your speakers running - is the case noise bothersome - or are you on headphones like I am? Hehe.
I boxed the Antec back up and put it back on its garage shelf. My real estate deal refuses to die, and I might actually get paid at the end of this month. If so, I think I'll just go for it - the whole $2500 new build - that includes about $400 extra for i7 940 to stay slightly ahead of the game.
Today is game day - minus about 4 hours on that detailed Antec 1200 post. I'm playing Breakthrough, the game with the brilliant sandstorm. But I just went through a bad part of a level with constant freezes (CCC helped restore 20 freezes, but I did have to reboot about 4 times) and now I'm past that on another level that is absolutely smooth like the duststorm. So I guess it's just maybe one programmer was writing code from time to time that the 3850 doesn't like, hahaha.
Rich
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4. March 2009 @ 20:14 |
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Had to edit the top picture to use one from a site less arsey about stealing content.
The one thing you have to remember about fans is that they don't only force air in a direct path facing the fan, air will venture to the left and right as well, especially if it hits an obstruction.
Originally posted by Rich:
Are you saying that because of the gap - the upper card really doesn't partition that completely - so that's how the air gets up there?
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Yate Loon (not Tate Loon lol) make decent fans, but they tend to only be available in certain sizes in certain places as they're not intended as retail products. I think Evercool make decent 40mm fans from what I've heard from Russ.
I'm only suggesting such a large amount of intake is necessary if you do entirely partition off the top section entirely. If you do, you have the airflow from two 120mm fans and a 200mm all running through a 120mm fan hole. At the lowest speed (not sure if the rear fans on the Twelve Hundred are analog or switched, but lowest was 1050rpm for the 120s and 450 for the 200) you've got around 110CFM coming through there, which only a flat out FM121 can achieve in a 120mm space.
Everest is a bit like speedfan, but without the fan control. It does a hell of a lot that speedfan doesn't though, and unlike speedfan, it's been updated since 2005.
I often use speakers but not always. The system is barely audible with headphones on at any reasonable volume, but I have relatively good headphones. I still need to run my case fans at high speed to prevent stability issues when all 4 GPUs are running though, which adds to the noise somewhat.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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4. March 2009 @ 20:34 |
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Oh, now I see the 900 picture. I thought the other was a link and was clicking it all over, lol.
That 900 looks nice - but no screwed-into-place hard plastic inset over the mesh, huh? Yeah, I guess Antec got some feedback that some people didn't like that. On the 1200 the hard plastic can be unscrewed and taken off though, if somebody wants how it was on the 900.
Uhhhh, Yate Loon. Well I was close hahaha. Evercool - ok, another note on the new build text file.
Yeah, headphones - that's what I thought - I figured you were probably on the headphones for at least a good portion of the time. I know that you like speakers - so does Jeff - he was bragging about his nice system one time - probably very beautiful sound. So when you turn all the case fans to full blast, with all four gpus rocking along - I bet it's a little loud for your tastes.
Let me ask you - if it works out that the arctic coolers at 0.5 sones are actually quiet - how much of a difference do you think that would make for you?
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4. March 2009 @ 20:56 |
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A little, but trust me, they won't be that quiet. Six 80mm fans at 2000rpm with that many blades won't be that pleasant.
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5. March 2009 @ 00:33 |
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Quote:
Yeah, headphones - that's what I thought - I figured you were probably on the headphones for at least a good portion of the time. I know that you like speakers - so does Jeff - he was bragging about his nice system one time - probably very beautiful sound.
Depending on the time and what kind of game/music I'm playing, I prefer both. I'm using the Creative Fatal1ty headset as a replacement for a pair of Sennheiser HD212s. So far so good. Excellent audio quality that challenges the Sennheisers and crystal clear mic. The X-Fi Xtreme Music sound card is really a must. Onboard audio is bleh. But the sound card makes them sound exquisite.
My speakers are 32W Logitech X-230s. LOL 2 6W satellites and a 20W subwoofer. Not much power but the sound card brings them to life. They sound crisp and powerful with proper EQ. I might get more powerful ones soon but these are almost too loud half the time anyway. The sub gets my sister pissed a lot. The falling bus in FEAR 2 was great for that :P
Also, I use separate EQ profiles for the speakers and the headphones.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5. March 2009 @ 00:38
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5. March 2009 @ 00:38 |
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The falling bus was AWESOME.
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5. March 2009 @ 00:48 |
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Not to mention hearing it on nice headphones with Creative CMSS 3D surround. Full directional 5.1 on stereo headphones. Some games don't like this too much and sound crap with it on, but FEAR 2 loves it :D
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
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5. March 2009 @ 00:49 |
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Heh, a little different to what I use CMSS for - to run Stereo music over 5.1. Filling the room with music sounds so much better than two speakers, it's unbelievable.
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5. March 2009 @ 00:55 |
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Yeah but that's only useful for that if you have surround speakers :P
It just adds extra echo/reverb on my speakers and sounds crap. I'm sure that with a full 5.1 system it's really a treat! It works great for gaming with the headphones though :)
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
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harvrdguy
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5. March 2009 @ 19:36 |
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Hey guys, talking about headphones, I actually have headphones that are supposed to have - is it 6 little speakers? - in each ear - the Medusa 5.1 from Germany that some of Sam's Lan buddies also have. I guess they're pretty nice - I've had them for a while and I probably just take them for granted - I expect very full sound when I game. I turned down the music yesterday on Breakthrough - just too much drama! But for example, the birds chirping on Pacific Assault was beautiful, and the river noises - even the damn mosquitos - helped enhance the effect of total immersion that the big Dell provides.
(By the way - here's a new entry along my repeating theme of "What I never saw before until I got Sam's big Dell." LOL I noticed some "new" beautiful red plants yesterday, when I wasn't dodging Italians in the foggy night airborne glider assault on Sicily. "Where did these gorgeous red mulberry bush leaves come from?" I asked myself. Also, the flipped-over jeep on fire with thick black smoke rising above the flames, was stunning. The Dell just loves those colors! I stood there in total awe checking it out for a while. That was the last game that the Infinity Ward bunch did for EA, and the fire effects are incredible - maybe as good as I've ever seen and that's an old title! I started thinking, "If I'm getting blown away by some of this old stuff, I have to leave crysis un-installed in the cabinet, until I have the quad cf horsepower to run it on high settings and see what Sam and Estuansis have been enthusing about!")
Anyway, back to the Medusa 5.1, some of the original reviews said you might start getting accused of using wall cheats, because you would be able to clearly hear behind which wall the enemy is coming from, in Counter Strike. I'm not sure about my ability to tell that clearly, but on cod4 multiplayer - you can definitely hear people creeping around behind you.
Well, careful Jeff, you don't want to get your sister too pissed off, or there go your 50 inch HD "monitor" rights, hahaha. I don't know how extensive you want to get to, but the little $200 Costco Philips hts (with DVD player and radio tuner) that I picked up for Vanessa is excellent sound - 1000 watts. It comes with narrow profile tallboy rear speakers. (Vanessa didn't want her little bohemian place to look that high tech, so I removed the rear speakers from the stands and hung them behind her window curtains.) The woofer will cause your sister to kick you out! The bus crash will break every window in your house! LOL
Sam I agree with you on the difference between stereo and 5.1, as I was testing out and enjoying on that little Home Theater System I picked up for Vanessa. The 1000 watt $200 Philips lets you switch between 1. Stereo - only coming out the front two - or 2. Party - it sends sound to all speakers in some kind of enhanced mode - or 3. true Dolby 5.1. (The Samsung TV/monitor has optical out for dolby, but the Philips only has coax in - but I found a little $12 active powered box to do the conversion.)
On my last visit to her place, I was watching my normal spanish telenovella - I'm trying to learn spanish - and it was coming in at her house in HD with dolby 5.1 on the new Radio Shack powered HD antenna I had just added to her system. I couldn't believe all the little sounds and extra music riffs bouncing around from the back speakers that I never noticed before on my regular tv. I was shocked! It turned it into a completely different experience - much more enjoyable and engrossing. I started thinking maybe I should get myself the same system!
Anyway, on my main non-gaming computer, I also have the same 2-speaker plus woofer sound system like you have, Jeff, and it is for sure capable of very nice sound - they have some good tricks for getting surround sound out of only two speakers. But from your comments, Sam, it sounds like you actually have a six speaker 5.1 system. What equipment do you have?
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