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The Official Graphics Card and PC gaming Thread
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harvrdguy
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26. April 2009 @ 01:07 |
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Another thread - Kevin you traitor!! Hahaha.
Sam helps out on about a dozen threads, I think. Shaff also helps out on about a dozen - well, to be more accurate - he has been banned from a dozen and is now down to a half dozen. LOL
Rubbix - I am coming across some amazing data on the stepping d0 - some wild results - 10% better overclocking at lower voltages - stuff like that. Check out this article: Anandtech (Sam's fav site!) threw it on a DFI H8! Tank guys has the chip for $319.
WHERE DID THIS COOLER COME FROM? YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN HOLDING OUT!!
Thermalright IFX-14 !! Compatible list includes the DFI H8. I've been googling all night - never heard of the thing before and now I've seen some reviews and they're showing 4 degrees lower than TRUE. The IFX takes up to THREE 140mm fans in "push, push, push like a sonavabitch" ... er, I mean, push push pull.
Is it a gimmick? It's by Thermalright, the makers of TRUE. Or is it as Thermalright claims, the best there is in air cooling?
Coolers for Intel Core i7 Overclocking:
Originally posted by xbit labs:
Today?s test session didn?t reveal anything sensational: the most efficient cooling system is again Thermalright IFX-14. Its advantage over the rivals on the Intel Core i7 platform is indisputable. This cooler left everyone behind in both configurations ? with one and two fans. As for the configuration when IFX-14 comes with three 140-mm fans, only high-quality liquid-cooling systems could probably try to beat that.
Here it is in the picture below, in the xbits lab Antec 1200 case, Asus deluxe x58 mobo, 3 1 gig Dominator modules, with three 140-mm Scythe Kaze Maru fans at 1260rpm mounted in the north south orientation that Sam favors pointing up to that big 21cm ceiling fan.
The DFI H8 board is on the compatability list, but I don't know if I would have room to mount it that way with a graphics card in slot 2 - the hot slots on the DFI being 2 and 6.
Well, here's another view. Maybe I would have room to put the graphics card in slot 2.
Another quote: "Thermalright IFX-14 cools the CPU 3°C better if its heatpipes are positioned horizontally (we are talking about tower cases here)." So they are saying that Sam is right - point the fans up toward the ceiling exhaust fan. That sounds quite convincing for Sam's argument - however northbridge (PWM) cooling has to be taken into account as well - and I would still possibly be interested in real world testing in the spedo case to see how all temps were affected by the two different orientations, with all four gpus running at load.
One more picture - tight fit with three but not six dominator memory modules - same problem as the TRUE.
Okay - the temps: Here is the chart showing the same fan configuration on the IFX and the other 5 coolers - 4 degrees cooler than TRUE.
The 3-fan 140mm configuration is at the bottom - those 140s were running at a lazy and probably inaudible 1260 rpm. Temps not as low as the two 120s running at 2600 - but same stable overclock at 4.0. (Note - this is not the new higher-performaing d0 stepping.)
In their closing remarks, xbit labs says: Quote:
Once you check out the results, you ask yourself: if we call all 13 participating cooling solutions ?super coolers?, then what shall we call Thermalright IFX-14? An ?ultra cooler??
So what have you guys heard about this cooler?
Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. April 2009 @ 01:32
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26. April 2009 @ 02:09 |
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Originally posted by harvrdguy:
Another thread - Kevin you traitor!! Hahaha.
LOL! I couldn't decide whether to post it here, or the OC thread. It has been figured out regardless. See...I wasnt sure whether my 260GTX was 65nm, or 55nm. 2 softwares had different ideas LOL! It has been discovered though, that its indeed 55nm(Thankfully)! If it were 65...my PSU probably would have POPPED by now LOL! And in fact, it may be close to going now :( Though it only blows cool air!!! Something tells me, I made a stupid purchase buying an OCZ. Its ok, you guys can bash me. I can take it LOL! Regardless, in under a month, I will be buying a Behemoth PSU LOL! I dont like my equipment being limited in options!!!
Kevin
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. April 2009 @ 02:10
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26. April 2009 @ 06:04 |
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The question you have to ask yourself is - is it really worth all that extra effort of making sure it will absolutely fit for the 4c or so benefit? The TRUE120 and Noctua NH-U12P are still IMO the best.
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26. April 2009 @ 06:46 |
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I did try it a while back, and couldn't really see any difference. Then again, perhaps it only works best with noisy high speed fans. What is more important however, as I proved, is room setup. At home my PC is on my desk to the right of my monitor, in a small room that gets very hot (due to the heat my PC puts out). Now I'm back in York, the room is much bigger and doesn't heat up very much, and the PC is on the floor. Where it was on the desk, the side fans suck the hot air in from my monitor straight into the CPU cooler. The upshot of this is, moving back to York has dropped my idle temps by 25ºC
What's worth mentioning is that the TRUE has a relatively low fan throughput plateau, i.e. where making the fan faster makes almost no difference to temps. Generally this seems around 1600-1800rpm for a 120mm fan, beyond that you're talking 1-2ºC off for an extra 50% increase in fan speed. Presumably this is because the heatsink is so large, the limiting factor is now the contact with the block and the heatspreader of the CPU.
I was wondering when the IFX-14 would show up. In essence, I think it is a bit gimmicky. I've never seen any tests at normal configs where it offers any more than a couple of degrees over a TRUE. It's marginally better, but more expensive, heavier, more difficult to install and so on and so forth.
For the record, a Kaze Maru is definitely not inaudible at 1200rpm, they're fast and loud fans for the size, but even so, a few more hundred rpms would knock the temps down a little bit.
Did you spot the Zalman PSU in that picture? :)
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26. April 2009 @ 09:45 |
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Originally posted by sammorris:
Did you spot the Zalman PSU in that picture? :)
Hehe. Trust you to pick that up dude :)
So... I was doing some thinking... how much do you think my idle cpu temp will rise by when I finally get my GTX275s installed later this week? ATM, it's 44c hottest core when room temp is around 30c. I don't know if my modded side fan is going to cut it :S Might have to put another one on..
Gigabyte 3d Aurora 570 | Coolermaster Real Power M1000 | Core i7 920 @ 4.0ghz w/ Coolermaster V10 | DFI LanParty DK-X58-T3EH6 | Evga GTX275 SLI @ FTW clocks | 3x2GB Patriot 1600mhz | Seagate 500GB x2, 1.5TB, FreeAgentPro 500GB | Dell 2408WFP | Windows 7 Professional x64
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26. April 2009 @ 09:56 |
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the silverstone fortesss is one of the top air cooled cases around and it uses 2 intake 180mm fans (top and bottom) and 1 120mm exhaust, usign positive prssure to force air though the rest fo the case and then though the vents, and thought the PCIE slots, (which are ventilated).
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26. April 2009 @ 10:16 |
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But doesn't it lack a side fan IIRC?
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26. April 2009 @ 10:20 |
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yes your right
yeah it was the best for the CPU IICR but for the GPU it was one of the worst lol
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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26. April 2009 @ 20:13 |
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Originally posted by rubbix:
The question you have to ask yourself is - is it really worth all that extra effort of making sure it will absolutely fit for the 4c or so benefit?
Very good point - after the excitement wore off last night, I started asking myself the same thing.
Originally posted by - Just how far do we take this cooling stuff?:
But 3 degrees here, 4 degrees there - it adds up, LOL! That's like push pull seems to make a 3 degree difference, Sam's favorite north south TRUE orientation seems to make a 3 degree difference, the ifx-14 might make a 4 degree difference, the pwm outside of case cooler on the DFI H8 might make a 3 degree PWM difference, and the d0 stepping might make a few degree cpu difference - or at least a faster overclock at the same temp.
And consider this: I read a review of the TRUE pure copper at 4 pounds, which shows about 4 degrees better cooling. I could rig up a spring support from the top of the case that would counter 3 of the 4 pounds to protect my motherboard from flexing, if I paid the extra $30 for all copper. Again, back to the same point, cost aside, would it be worth the risk of bending the mobo, if my spring setup failed (it wouldn't.)
Ok Sam, I see your point completely - 25 degrees cooler!! How many more houses do I have to sell to be able to move to York so my system will work as well as yours?
Originally posted by sam:
For the record, a Kaze Maru is definitely not inaudible at 1200rpm....
Hahaha - I threw that "inaudible" out there and I figured you'd pick up on it if I were wrong.
I got myself temporarily confused - at the same rpm the bigger fans will push more air, but of course, generally make more noise. I guess there are other factors at work besides size, for example shroud design, pitch of blade, bearing type. The scythe s-flex 120mm fluid dynamic bearing fan is rated at 150,000 hours and optimized for noise reduction. The Kaze Maru is a sleeve bearing design rated at 30,000 hours. Here are the specs:
Kaze Maru 140mm at 1200rpm is 26.58 db, delivering 61 CFM.
Scythe S-flex 120mm at 1200rpm is only 20.1 db and delivers 49 CFM.
Scythe S-flex 120mm at 1600rpm is 28 db and delivers 63.7 CFM
It looks to me like the choice between the 120mm scythe s-flex at 1600 rpm is just about a tossup, compared to the kaze maru 140mm at 1200 rpm. The scythe s-flex will last 5 times longer - basically forever - and for an extra 1.42 db of noise, you pick up 2.7 CFM more flow. Originally posted by sam:
What's worth mentioning is that the TRUE has a relatively low fan throughput plateau, i.e. where making the fan faster makes almost no difference to temps. Generally this seems around 1600-1800rpm for a 120mm fan, beyond that you're talking 1-2ºC off for an extra 50% increase in fan speed. Presumably this is because the heatsink is so large, the limiting factor is now the contact with the block and the heatspreader of the CPU.
Applying Sam's analysis to the ifx-14, sounds like Sam's analysis is accurate. The xbit labs chart showed 5 degrees lower temps, with two 120s at a screaming 2600 rpm, than with 3 140s kaze maru at 1200 rpm. And as we see by the fan specs, 3 scythe s-flex 120s at 1600 rpm wouldn't make much of a difference from the kaze maru 140s at 1200.
Quote:
but even so, a few more hundred rpms would knock the temps down a little bit.
I was thinking the same thing - it would have been nice if the xbit labs reviewer had had the 1900rpm kaze maru models, with a fan controller knocking them down, say to 1500-1600 rpm, so we could see the real deal on temps. The 1900 rpm kaze maru at a screaming 41db puts out over 104 CFM - that's a lot of air! - so fan-controller-down-revved to 1500 or 1600 rpm, it should still be moving lots of air, maybe at a 33-35db noise level.(It looks like the xbit labs guy just scrounged around and grabbed the only set of three 140s that he had on hand.)
Originally posted by sam:
I did try it a while back, and couldn't really see any difference. Then again, perhaps it only works best with noisy high speed fans.
I was wondering when the IFX-14 would show up. In essence, I think it is a bit gimmicky. I've never seen any tests at normal configs where it offers any more than a couple of degrees over a TRUE. It's marginally better, but more expensive, heavier, more difficult to install and so on and so forth.
Ya see, you were holding out!! Hahaha.
Well, around the net, most everybody seems to agree - maybe the ifx-14 is a lot of extra trouble for little gain. But what's everybody's take on pure copper TRUE (with a counter-balancing spring hanging from top of case.) I know, you're all gonna say: "Rich are you really Rube Goldberg in disguise?" haha
A Zalman PSU? I ditto rubbix - good eyes, Sam. Oh yeah, there it is. I remember now. Last night, about the time I was telling myself, "that looks like my antec 1200 that I just traded in for that spedo" before I verified by checking the setup, I noticed the bottom PSU in the third shot. But I didn't pick up on the brand. How's your Zalman working out for you these days?
Shaff, I agree 100% on what you said about positive case pressure. You know, Sam, you once said that you opened the front of your lexa and you were dismayed to find hot air trying to exit the front of the case. As I recall you thought air should have been trying to be sucked in. But positive case pressure means that any opening at all will expell air - and in my mind that's what you want - if you absolutely want to control dust and not have all your heat sinks lose effectiveness over time. So that means more intake pressure than exhaust, and filters on every intake fan. That's going to be my modding philosophy for the spedo.
So guys, do I spring load the all-copper TRUE, or FUGGEDABOUDIT! LOL
Rich
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26. April 2009 @ 20:22 |
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remember to have ur top exhaust as an intake :), or test to see which one works better :)
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26. April 2009 @ 20:40 |
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Lol. Dunno, depends what you buy. Rent here is cheaper than a lot of places, so perhaps house prices are too?
The area has nothing to do with it though, it's all about the room layout. My room here is much bigger, and is laid out in such a manner that my PC can sit in a much more useful place.
To be honest, don't look at fan specs too closely, they're often inconsistent and not especially accurate. Scythe's are usually pretty good, and from my own experience those figures seem close. However, a good 1200rpm 140mm fan should not be quite 26.6dB. The Marus are rather rough, simple designs compared to the refined S-Flex. For more air per rpm, and better CFM per dB, the 120mm Slipstreams (Kaze Jyuni) are excellent buys, I'm considering picking some up for my HAF. They make them in 5 speeds - 500, 800, 1200, 1600 and 1900 rpm. Pitch and airflow wise, due to their 9 blade design, this is more like 650, 1050, 1600, 2100 and 2450rpm though. (But the noise produce will be a little less than this due to the smaller blades)
With the big 230mm+120mm setup at the top, 140 at the back, and more vents than you can shake a stick at, positive pressure doesn't really bug me with the HAF. The Lexa was a bit cramped, and simplistic as far as airflow goes to cool two X2s properly. The next system going in it should have no issue though, and this time it's silence over performance.
The TRUE Copper is a big waste. It's lethal to motherboards unless the PC lies flat on its side all day, and does't really gain you any more than a loud fan does for a regular TRUE. The limiting factor nowadays is the heat transfer through the heatpipe.
The Zalman, so far, is still proving amazing, still inaudible no matter what I do.
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26. April 2009 @ 20:44 |
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its a shame i cant say that my 850W northQ isnt so quite
its quiet but not as silent as my 650W dark power pro
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26. April 2009 @ 20:49 |
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It's quiet because you're only drawing 150W and can't hear it over the GPU fan... :P
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26. April 2009 @ 20:52 |
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which PSU?
i cant hear the northQ over the silverstone 80mm fan, the GPU is quiet at 20% fan speed. whic is what i have it at
MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.
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26. April 2009 @ 22:38 |
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Here's a good question. Once upon a time a few months ago, I saw an alternative means for power for a graphics card. That way, one could upgrade their Video card, without having to upgrade their PSU for a lot of money. Any thoughts on that technology?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLis...ntary&x=22&y=31
That way, In removing the GPU, it SHOULD effect the 12V rail rather substantially. Then I can bump my CPU up a notch or two :D I REALLY believe my CPU is becoming underpowered when I attempt more overclocking than im at now. Infact, to prolong the life of the PSU, I may drop it back 250Mhz. Ive heard its possible also, to destroy one rail, while maintaining others? Should I just underclock the CPU, and wait til I can afford a SUPER PSU? You know...a 1200W or more HIGHLY recommended PSU.
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. April 2009 @ 22:47
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26. April 2009 @ 22:44 |
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damn, very nice product, does it have a fan inside it? if not we could use lowe powered quiet PSUs and one of those for very powerfull setups :)
time to find reviews
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26. April 2009 @ 22:49 |
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Dual front intake fans :D I updated my last post.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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26. April 2009 @ 22:50 |
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Wait! Shaff!!
You've got all that stuff in your sig, including that 850watt psu, in a shoe box!! And you're driving two monitors? WFT!
You know, I thought the same thing at one time - ceiling fan as intake. But Sam said No No No. Also his north south blowing the air up toward the top would also seem to suggest ceiling exhaust - and even the east west blowing the air out the lower back exhaust - sam says the ceiling intake would short circuit with the upper back exhaust which makes sense. Anyway, your point about testing is a good idea - I can always try it both ways.
So no copper. Okay, that's a relief. I was gearing up for the sound of the DFI splitting in two, haha. No, actually, I am sure I could support it. I could bolt something to the top of the TRUE and run rods vertically and horizontally, and support the TRUE at its head - I don't see why not. But, I'll save that for next time - regular TRUE for this time.
What about lapping the TRUE - crazypc only charges $20. I might as well, eh? That way, if I ever lapped the 920, I'd already have half the job done. I know you guys, Sam and Shaff, you don't run lapped cpus, but that's another 4 degrees, right?
Anyway, anybody see anything wrong with getting the TRUE lapped?
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26. April 2009 @ 22:51 |
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mmm wonder if its loud? if at all.
wonder if yuo would be the guinneipig (sp) for us and test it :D
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26. April 2009 @ 22:54 |
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every degree helps :)
also i would love to lap my CPU till it hit the dies, and i may do, in this shoebox PC every degree deffinately helps, i may send it in for some pro lapping or do it my self, though right now rent is the biggest priority :D lol!
well i would think that the exhaust top fan would interfere with an exhaust rear as the air would be like, "WTF where do i go?!" lol, where as form the intake at the top, throught the CPU and out of the back, (and over the VRMs)
:)
and oh yesh, loads of power in a shoebox FTW :D
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26. April 2009 @ 22:55 |
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I just may. LOL! The 450W appears to be in the required power range. And it is getting pretty good reviews. I wouldn't mind paying 90 just for testing purposes. I see a lot of potential behind this technology :D
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26. April 2009 @ 22:57 |
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hell if it works for you, i hope i find it in the UK and ill sell up my PSU, shell out like £30-£40 for a small PSU and get one of thsoe aswell.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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26. April 2009 @ 22:58 |
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Yeah, Kevin, I agree with Shaff, it doesn't sound bad at all!
Actually I thought I had heard something about "two power supplies" a long time ago - maybe a year ago. Maybe this is what they meant.
So you run a separate plug out the back of the case, but it receives a power signal through the 4 pin molex from the main psu, and turns on that way. Makes sense to me!
If it tended to be a little loud, you could probably sound-proof it inside that drive bay (leaving the fan inlet uncovered of course.)
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26. April 2009 @ 23:03 |
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Yeah, Im gonna go for it. Gonna have to wait a few weeks though. Gonna have to gather up some funds LOL! Unfortunately, my job isn't paying much. Though I do computer side projects for multiple people. ;)
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26. April 2009 @ 23:26 |
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the soon to be released 4770 with a 40nm proccess and 640SP, GDDR5 and a 128 bit interface comes to about 5% of the 4850,and this costs $99 where as the 4850 costs $139.99.
idle power consumption is the sameish, but load is drastically lower.
stomps right over the 9800GT which is its priced rival.
i think ATI are onto a winner, now come on Nvidia drop the price of the GTS250 to 99$ and watch the sales flood in :)
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