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The Official PC building thread -3rd Edition
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7. January 2009 @ 19:17 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Don't worry, it's just a really inaccurate program. Well, not inaccurate, but different. I score 37MB/s with my 36.7GB Raptor, and in other programs it scores 83MB/s. Your HDD is performing well.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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mrk44
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7. January 2009 @ 19:22 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
Don't worry, it's just a really inaccurate program. Well, not inaccurate, but different. I score 37MB/s with my 36.7GB Raptor, and in other programs it scores 83MB/s. Your HDD is performing well.
Well it's not really the benchmark that I'm talking about. It's when I actually copy and paste a file. Like for example, when I copy and paste a file that is about 800MB, the write speed I see with teracopy (I use that as a replacement for the windows copy manager) is around 45-50 MB/s, never any more than that. But then the benchmark says shows over 100MB/s. Are they two different things or am I missing something?

Cooler Master HAF 932 - Asus Maximus II Forumula - Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 @ 4.00GHz - 2x2GB Corsair Dominator DDR2/8500 1066 Mhz - Corsair HX1000W PSU - Asus EAH5870 Graphics Card - Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB HDD - Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB WD1001FALS HDD - LG CH10LS20 Blu-ray Drive - Asus Xonar D2X Sound Card - Logitech X-540 5.1 Surround Speakers - Samsung P2370HD Monitor
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7. January 2009 @ 19:32 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Where are you copying it from? If it's from and to the same drive, it's got to read and write at once, which for a mechanical hard drive halves the speed, if not worse. If it's to a slower drive, you could be limited by the speed of the other drive, also bear in mind HDDs slow down with how much space used up, and how fragmented they are.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
mrk44
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7. January 2009 @ 21:22 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
Where are you copying it from? If it's from and to the same drive, it's got to read and write at once, which for a mechanical hard drive halves the speed, if not worse. If it's to a slower drive, you could be limited by the speed of the other drive, also bear in mind HDDs slow down with how much space used up, and how fragmented they are.
That would explain a lot. When I copy to the same drive, it goes at about 48-50MB/s, which sounds about right based on what you just told me. When I copy to/from my 750GB seagate barracuda, it goes at about 65-66MB/s, which I guess is also about right since the seagate is slower. I'm only using around 39gb on the veloci, so not that much, and the fragmentation is less than 1%. So yea I guess it's alright then. Thanks.

ADD: also, i want to run the benchmark in hd tune (not file benchmark, the regular one), for write speed, but it says something about i need to remove all partitions to enable writing, but I only have one partition on the drive, and its for vista.

Cooler Master HAF 932 - Asus Maximus II Forumula - Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 @ 4.00GHz - 2x2GB Corsair Dominator DDR2/8500 1066 Mhz - Corsair HX1000W PSU - Asus EAH5870 Graphics Card - Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB HDD - Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB WD1001FALS HDD - LG CH10LS20 Blu-ray Drive - Asus Xonar D2X Sound Card - Logitech X-540 5.1 Surround Speakers - Samsung P2370HD Monitor

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. January 2009 @ 21:24

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7. January 2009 @ 21:39 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by mrk44:
Originally posted by sammorris:
Where are you copying it from? If it's from and to the same drive, it's got to read and write at once, which for a mechanical hard drive halves the speed, if not worse. If it's to a slower drive, you could be limited by the speed of the other drive, also bear in mind HDDs slow down with how much space used up, and how fragmented they are.
That would explain a lot. When I copy to the same drive, it goes at about 48-50MB/s, which sounds about right based on what you just told me. When I copy to/from my 750GB seagate barracuda, it goes at about 65-66MB/s, which I guess is also about right since the seagate is slower. I'm only using around 39gb on the veloci, so not that much, and the fragmentation is less than 1%. So yea I guess it's alright then. Thanks.

ADD: also, i want to run the benchmark in hd tune (not file benchmark, the regular one), for write speed, but it says something about i need to remove all partitions to enable writing, but I only have one partition on the drive, and its for vista.

mrk77,
Be careful what you test with and read the fine print carefully. There are many drive test utilities that will wipe out the whole hard drive! I just tested mine with Sandra and Passmark and it's score is 63 on both, even though the little green gauge shows about 73. Good enough for me. Try using an IDE drive for a week, that will get you longing for your Sata pretty quick! LOL!!

Best Regards,
Russ



GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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8. January 2009 @ 01:20 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by theonejrs:
Try using an IDE drive for a week, that will get you longing for your Sata pretty quick! LOL!!
Best Regards,
Russ

Couldnt have said it better myself. I love my sata drives. My poor AAKB 500gb ide drive is ran via usb due to the fact that my burners are taking up ALL available controllers. Really doesnt bother me. Its just a storage drive. It averages 20,000Kb/s write and read. Its all the usb controller will allow, is my guess. Certainly not maxing the usb header! The header should be upwards of 40-45,000Kb/s, not sure. Never seen the benchmark on USB. Cant wait for revision 3. Should be an interesting year ahead of us. MULTIPLE new technology releases.



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
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8. January 2009 @ 01:34 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by omegaman7:
Originally posted by theonejrs:
Try using an IDE drive for a week, that will get you longing for your Sata pretty quick! LOL!!
Best Regards,
Russ

Couldnt have said it better myself. I love my sata drives. My poor AAKB 500gb ide drive is ran via usb due to the fact that my burners are taking up ALL available controllers. Really doesnt bother me. Its just a storage drive. It averages 20,000Kb/s write and read. Its all the usb controller will allow, is my guess. Certainly not maxing the usb header! The header should be upwards of 40-45,000Kb/s, not sure. Never seen the benchmark on USB. Cant wait for revision 3. Should be an interesting year ahead of us. MULTIPLE new technology releases.

omegaman7,
Where you at? I have an IDE to Sata adapter you can have. It's only Sata 2 1.5Gb/s for a single Sata drive, but it would be a lot faster than a USB to Sata. You just plug the board into the IDE on the MB and plug the Sata cable into it. You may need to check and see if you will have to put a jumper on your Sata drive, although I doubt it. I've used it a couple of times and it seems to work fine. Like I say, you are welcome to it!

Best Regards,
Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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8. January 2009 @ 01:42 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Appreciate the offer but, Its an IDE drive, for one, and it is fast enough for what I use it. I transfer music, Small video clips, etc. So for the most part, its quick enough. THANK YOU though :D Gonna have to try and run another drive though soon, just to see it cross the 2TB threshold. It wouldnt do it a few weeks ago, but That QUITE possibly could have been due to insufficient power. I suppose its also possible, that the drive I tried connecting via usb, didnt like its jumper setting or the usb-ide adapter was malfunctioning, SOMETHING along those lines anyway. :)



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
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8. January 2009 @ 01:46 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by omegaman7:
Appreciate the offer but, Its an IDE drive, for one, and it is fast enough for what I use it. I transfer music, Small video clips, etc. So for the most part, its quick enough. THANK YOU though :D Gonna have to try and run another drive though soon, just to see it cross the 2TB threshold. It wouldnt do it a few weeks ago, but That QUITE possibly could have been due to insufficient power. I suppose its also possible, that the drive I tried connecting via usb, didnt like its jumper setting or the usb-ide adapter was malfunctioning, SOMETHING along those lines anyway. :)

My bad! I thought it was usb to Sata!

Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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8. January 2009 @ 02:31 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
No No, I would never insult a sata connection like that, LOL. Cant wait for sata rev3 :D



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
bigwill68
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8. January 2009 @ 03:17 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by theonejrs:

Antec has two that I like. The first is $119.99 and the second is on sale for $174.99. The first one comes with an Earthwatts 380w and the Second a 430w. I like the airflow and they will fit right in with my sound equipment.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129034




I was interested in this one, but it only has one external 5.25" bay, where the other one has 2

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129029







Perfect for my use, with well designed airflow. Bays for 2 ODDs and 2 HDDs I can finally get rid of the Tower and get some of my desktop back!

Best Regards,
Russ

Hey Russ here's your case we talked about day b4 yesterday you like
on sale at MicroCenter less than $100 brother..If you know it or not?I don't know if you gotta Micro Center near you or not..I gotta say..i kinda like it myself:)

http://microcenter.com/single_product_re...duct_id=0265324

Done out of Here!
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8. January 2009 @ 04:41 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by bigwill68:
Originally posted by theonejrs:

Antec has two that I like. The first is $119.99 and the second is on sale for $174.99. The first one comes with an Earthwatts 380w and the Second a 430w. I like the airflow and they will fit right in with my sound equipment.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129034




I was interested in this one, but it only has one external 5.25" bay, where the other one has 2

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129029







Perfect for my use, with well designed airflow. Bays for 2 ODDs and 2 HDDs I can finally get rid of the Tower and get some of my desktop back!

Best Regards,
Russ

Hey Russ here's your case we talked about day b4 yesterday you like
on sale at MicroCenter less than $100 brother..If you know it or not?I don't know if you gotta Micro Center near you or not..I gotta say..i kinda like it myself:)

http://microcenter.com/single_product_re...0265324

Holy Chit, Batman! LOL!! I'll be ordering one Friday! There's a MicroCenter in Tustin which is about 45 miles away! That is a great price and even if it doesn't work out for the x2 7750, when I put the 780G MB in Russell's computer, I'll use it then! That's a fantastic price man! Almost 50% off! Thanks Will! I owe you one!

Best Regards,
Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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8. January 2009 @ 04:49 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by theonejrs:
There's a MicroCenter in Tustin which is about 45 miles away!

Bet you get NEWEGG pretty quick :D <-----Jealous! Tempting to buy one myself. But then i'd be living on Ramen for a couple weeks. Got some Bill catching up to do, LOL



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
AfterDawn Addict

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8. January 2009 @ 07:11 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Correct, many utils won't allow you to test write performance without wiping all the data on the drive. Be careful of that!
USB is limited to 30MB/s (240Mbps) exactly. Why the printed speed is double this I'm unsure, but you will never see more than 30MB/s of throughput, if it's in both directions it drops to 15 each way. USB3 is certainly going to be itnteresting.
IDE to SATA dongles are a good idea though, they cost almost nothing and work pretty well.

Also, having recently re-installed the 750GB Barracuda into my PC:
Before
CPU Idle: 38șC
WD360GD: 39șC
HD753LJ: 36șC
Now
CPU Idle: 40șC
WD360GD: 42șC
HD753LJ: 39șC
ST3750640AS: 52șC (rose to 56 yesterday evening)
I was unable to get the temperature of the Seagate below 48 celsius with the SFF21F at maximum speed.
One does wonder, how much power is being used to create all that heat?



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. January 2009 @ 08:09

AfterDawn Addict

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8. January 2009 @ 08:42 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
ok all im learning more every day in here..lol
i know a IDE hdd is slower than a SATA hdd but is there a difference in quality transferbetween the 2? i now have 1 segate barracuda 16mb cache 250gb sata and a WD GP 16mb cache,500gb sata. i just installed a segate 16mb cache 250gb IDE hdd. only for some extra storage. if i use it to store movies/pics/mp3 ect.... when i go to burn from that drive, i know it will be a little slower than the sata drive but will the quality be less than the sata?

wheres boozer been?
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8. January 2009 @ 08:44 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
The quality of a file depends on how it is encoded, the only way a file could become impared after having been encoded is if it became corrupted, i.e. data loss. Normally, Hard disks do not have that problem unless you use an nForce 6 chipset :P

Realistically, the burn speed from an IDE or S-ATA drive should be pretty much identical as even the fastest DVD speed, 22x is only 30.5MB/s, which is far from the 50+ that even older IDE hard drives can manage. Assuming the data on the drive is contiguous, it should have no trouble keeping up.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
sytyguy
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8. January 2009 @ 08:48 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by theonejrs:
I'll be ordering one Friday! There's a MicroCenter in Tustin which is about 45 miles away! That is a great price and even if it doesn't work out for the x2 7750, when I put the 780G MB in Russell's computer, I'll use it then! That's a fantastic price man! Almost 50% off! Thanks Will! I owe you one!

Best Regards,
Russ

Better call them first, that item is backordered.
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8. January 2009 @ 09:19 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
The quality of a file depends on how it is encoded, the only way a file could become impared after having been encoded is if it became corrupted, i.e. data loss. Normally, Hard disks do not have that problem unless you use an nForce 6 chipset :P

Realistically, the burn speed from an IDE or S-ATA drive should be pretty much identical as even the fastest DVD speed, 22x is only 30.5MB/s, which is far from the 50+ that even older IDE hard drives can manage. Assuming the data on the drive is contiguous, it should have no trouble keeping up.
cool so then useing hte drive for storage to pull/burn stuff from i should have no worries. just make sure the dirve has been defraged and all should be peaches..lol

i try not to put the info/data on one drive them move to another and back and forth. try to keep it on the drive im gonna burn from.
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8. January 2009 @ 10:42 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
My MSI Platinum P35 mobo has gone to meet it's maker it seems.
Have spent ages swapping around RAM sticks and whatnot, the posh & very clever mobo LED's constantly indicate that there's a problem with the RAM. Much swapping of sticks and slots and still nothing. Tried the RAM sticks in one of the Dell C2D machines, no problem at all.
Am pretty sure i'm SOL getting it replaced as it's over a year old and ebuyer don't even sell them anymore (not yet sure if anyone else does yet). There's no way i am dismantling the 6 thousand wires and connections just to properly start from scratch, already broke my e-SATA to SATA lead earlier on. Have reset the CMOS yada yada yada.

So.... as much as it pains me... i'm going to plump for a replacement board ASAP. Any suggestions for me, i'm far too pissed off to google subjectively at the moment so am hoping you motherboard fanatics can point me in the right direction.
Remember i have a Q6600 and 4x 1GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500 ram (well 1 of those sticks failed the other week so was making do with 2GB since then).

I'm probably going to want to stick with a P35 motherboard unless there's a cheap enough newer alternative - though i'm not bothered about future-proofing at this stage, am out of work so want to reuse all existing components.

(though if it's cheap enough i think it's time i got some Corsair Dominator's - however as i'll never bother with overclocking i'll make do with less than PC2-8500 IF it's definitely cheaper).

I will have to move movie encoding duties to one of the E6400 C2D machines for now, which aren't a patch on the Quad, and can still access all my data from USB2.0 backup drives (oh the joy of swapping loads of USB cables around)

Someone help me out pretty please before i ban myself :) :)

edit- oh and the more SATA ports the better (if possible), the MSI mobo has 5 slots, at least 6 would be good to avoid using one of those crappy e-SATA to SATA converter cables.
In time i think i'll plump for an Antec 1200 as it's a major hassle trying to do anything in a fully loaded 900, no room to swing a chip's arse. (I hate SATA connectors, they're very badly designed crap but once they're in and you have enough room to avoid touching them they're ok).



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. January 2009 @ 11:39

AfterDawn Addict

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8. January 2009 @ 11:54 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
not trying ot start a mobo war again. but here are 2 good mobos that work well with your Q6600. and i think they are pretty cheap. i dont know how much ya wanna spend and they both have 6 reg sata and 2 esata so your good to go there
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcom...N82E16813128358
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8. January 2009 @ 11:57 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Cheers, will have a look-see.
I could care less who makes 'em as long as they work :)
Can't tell you how pissed off i am, i was trying to fit a Corsair Ram fan, guess i must've damaged the board somehow. Now you see one of the main reasons why i build a pc, leave well alone and that way they last for years. Gutted :p

I don't want to spend a bean but i feel naked without the Quad, not sure i can be arsed configuring DVD Rebuilder on the C2D. Oh hang on i have a feeling it's on there already,,,, hmmm...



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. January 2009 @ 11:59

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8. January 2009 @ 12:13 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
sorry to hear about it going south on ya. i would be pissed as well. hey if/when you do get another board. id try and contact MSI and see if they will rma it for ya. whats the worse they can say no????

here is a ASUS board. kinda cheap(mobo wise) and it is a good popular board as well. it also has 6 reg sata and 2 esata plugins.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131299

and works well with the quad cores.

EDIT:
hey now i have a C2D and my dvd-reb times arent that bad 45 mins on average... some faster some longer.im sure your quad is much faster,but i dont have one so im happy with my C2D..lol

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. January 2009 @ 12:15

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8. January 2009 @ 12:21 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Cheers for the links Rob, looking at all those shortly.
Rebuilder was on there, just updated it to the latest, and added vobblanker to clean up after DVDFab's rips. That's all i need to do really on the C2D. The C2D's i have aren't too shabby, E6400 2.13Ghz with varying amounts of RAM, 160GB hard drives (pah! at 160GB!) but they'll do the job for now. Just need to dig out a few USB cables for the weekend so the girls and i can access the movie backup drives thru the xboxes. Then i can concentrate on the mobo links, keep 'em coming, it's very rare that i read component specs, that'll keep me busy for a while.



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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8. January 2009 @ 12:42 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Those UD3 motherboards are certainly good performers, I'd probably recommend going with those to prevent any issues regarding a Quad core's power consumption. However, the EP43-DS3L is probably substantially cheaper and still quite well featured.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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8. January 2009 @ 12:45 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Keep 'em coming, i need cheering up. Or the Guinness gets it :p

vobblanker's complete, time for some C2D Rebuilder action...



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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