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19. March 2009 @ 13:26 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
3.65hz on a Q9550 is easy peasy, my X38 could manage that 24/7 stable (that's exactly what I used, and what I am running now) The extra cache should see a per-core improvement on the E8400 as well.
Remind me, what PSU do you have?



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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redice
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19. March 2009 @ 13:35 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Rob

you should be fine with that psu(corsair 750TX). i am running that psu that you are talking about with the q9550 and a 4850 and everything runs fine.


This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 19. March 2009 @ 13:35

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19. March 2009 @ 13:35 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Ah, the 750TX. Wow, holy crap, that's enough to run that system three times over.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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19. March 2009 @ 16:05 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Hey Sam,
To late...I pulled the trigger and bought the ASUS Revolution...I will look at the DFI...for the future...The heat of the I7's is a bit worrisome...When are the going to due a Die Shrinkage?..I believe the next versions are going from 45nm to 32nm...that should hopefully bring them down to the 100watt level for a quad...

Hey Rob,
Good to hear from you...hope the new job works out...on the case...I know there are cheaper more thermally efficient cases...but this is just about desire...I have been looking at having a case custom painted for my self for years...I have looked into custom plating...either way I was looking at $1,000...not including a case...eventually I will do a one off custom paint job...I already know what it will look like...but for now...this will do...now after this years festival...I will probably go ahead and just go for it...custom paint...water cooled...I plumbed my house with pex tubing so I can water cool all my systems...all running to an external radiator mounted in my garage...

Hey Greenie,
Your right...money isn't really an issue...if I get what I really want...and I want a custom case...}:)


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19. March 2009 @ 16:09 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by Lp531:
I plumbed my house with pex tubing so I can water cool all my systems...all running to an external radiator mounted in my garage...

Thats friggin awesome! Now There's an enthusiast if I ever saw one!



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
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19. March 2009 @ 16:49 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by rick5446:
THANKS Russ

Rick,
You are most welcome!

Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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19. March 2009 @ 17:07 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by cincyrob:
i look at cases like a car(yes weve been down this metaphoric road before..lol)everyone likes what they like and if they can afford it why not lifes short enjoy it while you can. myself im with LP id have one of them cases(desparado) in a heart beat if i had the cash flow.

Edit:
ok guys ive gotten the call ive been waiting for.i am officially hired at my job the temp service i was with called and said the company is hireing me full time monday the 23rd.

with that news within 2 months i will have my quad build. not gonna be a entire new build. just mobo,cpu,and gpu. i have saved up $220 so far so im not gonna have to drop it all at once.
here is what im going with.
MOBO
CPU
GPU

total of $628 +s/h

i want the Q9650 but for .17mhz more(3.0 vs 2.83) its not worth $60 when i can OC it just the same. being EO stepping.

the only question i may have with the rest of my stuff well most my PSU is the corsair 750TX enough power for the way bigger GPU and the CPU.

also would it be better if i went to a 64bit OS to increase mem to say 6 gigs just for the fact the GPU has twice the mem mine has now.

Rob,
The MSI is actually a better card for less money. Very cool running compared to most as it has a nice heatpipe cooler on it. Only $109 after the MIR!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127401

Best Regards,
Russ



GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


redice
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19. March 2009 @ 17:21 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
hey russ

hows it going? as you may remember i have the MSI HD4850.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127370
now i see little to if any different in this card. then in the one you posted. whats so different about it? i would think it has to be different in some way for newegg to Deactivated the one i have.


Quote:

The MSI is actually a better card for less money. Very cool running compared to most as it has a nice heatpipe cooler on it. Only $109 after the MIR!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127401




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19. March 2009 @ 18:15 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by redice:
hey russ

hows it going? as you may remember i have the MSI HD4850.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127370
now i see little to if any different in this card. then in the one you posted. whats so different about it? i would think it has to be different in some way for newegg to Deactivated the one i have.


Quote:

The MSI is actually a better card for less money. Very cool running compared to most as it has a nice heatpipe cooler on it. Only $109 after the MIR!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127401


redice,
There's only a few differences. It's just that the model has been upgraded and replaced with the newer one. It's slightly faster at 640MHz than yours is at 625MHz. I don't really see any other differences! MSI changed the product number and the older product number is not available anymore, so Newegg deactivated it! Same card, just a little faster!

Best Regards,
Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 19. March 2009 @ 18:19

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19. March 2009 @ 18:41 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
@omegaman7
Quote:
I plumbed my house with pex tubing so I can water cool all my systems...all running to an external radiator mounted in my garage...

Thats friggin awesome! Now There's an enthusiast if I ever saw one!

I gutted my house down to the studs...my whole house is in pex...so I figured why not add it to the whole house concept...whole house computer...TV...Lighting...Audio and Video in every room including bathroom...
here is one dilemma I am looking at...right now I have it as one loop...should I brake it into a manifold with equal length runs of tubing...1 system...

I was also thinking of adding a chilled reservoir...then maybe the building up of heat as it goes from one system to the next would not be an issue...
or go individual systems...6 radiators...6 pumps...maybe I could double up 2 computer to each pump and radiator...cut the costs in 1/2...


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19. March 2009 @ 18:58 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by Lp531:
@omegaman7
Quote:
I plumbed my house with pex tubing so I can water cool all my systems...all running to an external radiator mounted in my garage...

Thats friggin awesome! Now There's an enthusiast if I ever saw one!

I gutted my house down to the studs...my whole house is in pex...so I figured why not add it to the whole house concept...whole house computer...TV...Lighting...Audio and Video in every room including bathroom...
here is one dilemma I am looking at...right now I have it as one loop...should I brake it into a manifold with equal length runs of tubing...1 system...

I was also thinking of adding a chilled reservoir...then maybe the building up of heat as it goes from one system to the next would not be an issue...
or go individual systems...6 radiators...6 pumps...maybe I could double up 2 computer to each pump and radiator...cut the costs in 1/2...

LP531,
Why not just recirculate the whole system, rather than individually. Then it shouldn't make any difference at all. I'm assuming that you have an outlet, back to the water system, as well as an inlet to each computer, so you shouldn't need any pump at all in each computer. You should be able to go with just the CPU cooler. With a solid metal one, leaks would be limited to the hoses themselves. No pump connections inside the computer, but just two lines for the water in and out. As long as you don't over-tighten the clamps, that shouldn't be a problem. I know one guy that bought very small worm drive clamps, and tightened them so tight that the barbs actually cut the tubing and caused them to leak!

Best Regards,
Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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19. March 2009 @ 19:50 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by cincyrob:
ok im drawing blanks here. how do i boot up in safe mode? ive gone into bios,just hit the rest button. i cant seem to get that window to show up to choose safe mode or normal start up ect....

Rob,
Sorry for the late reply! To get into safe mode, I just keep hitting the F8 key until the option menu pops up! Then you select Safe Mode without networking!

Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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19. March 2009 @ 20:56 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
@Russ
Quote:
LP531,
Why not just recirculate the whole system, rather than individually. Then it shouldn't make any difference at all. I'm assuming that you have an outlet, back to the water system, as well as an inlet to each computer, so you shouldn't need any pump at all in each computer. You should be able to go with just the CPU cooler. With a solid metal one, leaks would be limited to the hoses themselves. No pump connections inside the computer, but just two lines for the water in and out. As long as you don't over-tighten the clamps, that shouldn't be a problem. I know one guy that bought very small worm drive clamps, and tightened them so tight that the barbs actually cut the tubing and caused them to leak!

Best Regards,
I want to pull all that heat out of the house...
This is how I have it laid out now...pump & radiator in garage...no pumps or radiators in cases...inlet and return lines going from one computer to the next so that the water would be get hotter as it travel down the system...that is why I am thinking more along the lines of how they plumb a tankless water system...with a single line going to a manifold with home runs that goes to the individual computers...do the same with the return...that way the heat of one computer does not go to the next...

I would also like to chill the whole system...pex will not sweat like copper or cast...I am sure there is something industrial that I could use...not super chilled...but cold...no condensation...


This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 19. March 2009 @ 20:58

redice
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19. March 2009 @ 21:56 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
ok and from the looks of it they just oc'd the card abit(as i get from the oc in the tittle of the card).

Quote:

redice,
There's only a few differences. It's just that the model has been upgraded and replaced with the newer one. It's slightly faster at 640MHz than yours is at 625MHz. I don't really see any other differences! MSI changed the product number and the older product number is not available anymore, so Newegg deactivated it! Same card, just a little faster!

Best Regards,
Russ



This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 19. March 2009 @ 23:50

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19. March 2009 @ 22:22 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by Lp531:
@Russ
Quote:
LP531,
Why not just recirculate the whole system, rather than individually. Then it shouldn't make any difference at all. I'm assuming that you have an outlet, back to the water system, as well as an inlet to each computer, so you shouldn't need any pump at all in each computer. You should be able to go with just the CPU cooler. With a solid metal one, leaks would be limited to the hoses themselves. No pump connections inside the computer, but just two lines for the water in and out. As long as you don't over-tighten the clamps, that shouldn't be a problem. I know one guy that bought very small worm drive clamps, and tightened them so tight that the barbs actually cut the tubing and caused them to leak!

Best Regards,
I want to pull all that heat out of the house...
This is how I have it laid out now...pump & radiator in garage...no pumps or radiators in cases...inlet and return lines going from one computer to the next so that the water would be get hotter as it travel down the system...that is why I am thinking more along the lines of how they plumb a tankless water system...with a single line going to a manifold with home runs that goes to the individual computers...do the same with the return...that way the heat of one computer does not go to the next...

I would also like to chill the whole system...pex will not sweat like copper or cast...I am sure there is something industrial that I could use...not super chilled...but cold...no condensation...

LP,
With all that you did, unless the insulation isn't very good, it should be more than cool enough the way you have it. Closed loop Recirculating systems are, "A" expensive and "B" not terribly reliable and prone to air pockets. In fixed metal pipes, this is not a problem, but in flexible tubing are very problematic, if you do get an air bubble. It's like the way the pipes bang around when you get air in the water pipes. It tends to make whips out of the flexible lines, because water compresses the air, which locally raises the pressure of the air and causes a shock wave when the water resumes it's flow. It's why water pipes with air in them make hammering noises and shake!

If you are thinking about the heat in the summertime, mount the radiator inside the inlet air ducting of your AC unit! That should take care of the excess heat. There's really no benefit in chilling it! The difference in temps would be minimal at best! It's still going to cool real well!

Best Regards,
Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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20. March 2009 @ 07:38 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
New Intel CPUs and price cuts loom, report claims
by Cyril Kowaliski ? 11:05 AM on March 19, 2009
Intel has several rounds of price cuts and new processor introductions lined up for April, May, and July, according to DigiTimes. The site has used its sources at motherboard manufacturers to amass a detailed list of the incoming changes.

The first set will come on April 19. That's when Intel will roll out a $183 Core 2 Quad Q8400 clocked at 2.66GHz, hand-in-hand with a lower-power Q8400S version. Price cuts will come, too, but don't get too excited?DigiTimes says they'll only apply to the now long-in-the-tooth Core 2 Quad Q9300 and low-power derivatives of current Core 2 Quads. These "S" models have 65W power envelopes, down from 95W on the regular quads.

On May 31, DigiTimes claims Intel will follow up with a 3.33GHz Core i7-975 and 3.06GHz Core i7-950 priced at a respective $999 and $562. At the low end, you can look forward to a $133 Core 2 Duo E7600 and a couple of new sub-$100 chips. Interestingly, the list of cuts doesn't mention any changes to current Core i7s, even though the two aforementioned chips will purportedly have the same prices as the existing i7-965 and i7-940. Maybe Intel will just swap them out.

Finally, on July 19, rumor has it the chipmaker will bring the Core 2 Quad Q8300 to $163, drag the Core 2 Duo E7500 to $113, and apply $10 price cuts to a couple of 45nm Pentiums and a dual-core Celeron. Nothing particularly groundbreaking there, perhaps, but the Pentium cuts could put some pressure on AMD. Then again, the rumor mill hints AMD will have some 45nm Athlon X2s ready the month before.
Some interesting stuff there.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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20. March 2009 @ 07:48 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
well i got my HDD back with windows preinstalled in it. plugged it in everything loaded ,the windows screen came up and then BLAMMMM shut down got the blue window that said windows has shut down to prevent damage to your computer screen. telling me to boot in safe mode. so i tried that .. hitting F8 goes to the screen where i can choose safe mode. it startes to load then BLAMMMM same blue screen saying windows shut down to prevent damage..... so i changed boot sequence to boot from cd/rom/ put my windows disc in and try to boot from that... same error... i dont have any of my other HDD's hooked up only this one. was it a bad install of windows causeing this problem?
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20. March 2009 @ 10:45 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by cincyrob:
well i got my HDD back with windows preinstalled in it. plugged it in everything loaded ,the windows screen came up and then BLAMMMM shut down got the blue window that said windows has shut down to prevent damage to your computer screen. telling me to boot in safe mode. so i tried that .. hitting F8 goes to the screen where i can choose safe mode. it startes to load then BLAMMMM same blue screen saying windows shut down to prevent damage..... so i changed boot sequence to boot from cd/rom/ put my windows disc in and try to boot from that... same error... i dont have any of my other HDD's hooked up only this one. was it a bad install of windows causeing this problem?
Man you were up early. lol. That would be my guess rob but w/o knowing more who really knows. What card are you running for graphics on this machine?? Make sure all your connections are tight and clean then try again. good luck

....gm

[img]quoted from creaky, "I think i need a break away from this thread, you are just talking absolute and utter nonsense now. Im off to ban myself and hit myself repeatedly with blunt objects. And if im still conscious after that im going to install Windows Me."[/img]
PC build thread blank media thread Ultimate DVD Backup resource thread what did binkie7 do to me???
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20. March 2009 @ 11:19 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
i just bought a new 500gb segate put it in and am trying to load windows on a fresh drive and im getting the same error i cant laod windows? do i need to clear cmos on the mobo and try it? should i try putting the sata cable in a different port????? i dont know what to do now??
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20. March 2009 @ 11:21 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Why don't you just try loading a linux live cd and install to the problematic hard drive ?, you can always wipe it afterwards. I've just installed the latest version of PCLinuxOS (2009.1) on a spare P4 machine, all looking good so far..



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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20. March 2009 @ 12:13 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
well ive tried a different sata port, made sure all connections are ok. even chaged PCI slots for my GPU. still getting the same error. doesnt matter which drive i try and boot in with. Creaky where can i get a copy of linux from. i just did a search for it and 50 million things came up with different versions and such to DL. which should i try and use?
rick5446
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20. March 2009 @ 13:13 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
DVD SHRINK and DVDFab won't start, but show up in Task Manger. But won't close either through TASK MANAGER Processes. Does this seem to be a fault in WinXP or Hardware problem. I've never run into this B4, they just seem to B Locked
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20. March 2009 @ 15:03 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Rob- http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0....0-i386-CD-1.iso

I would use debian. It has a nice simple text installer and it installs fast. If it installs fine then you will know that there is noting wrong with your hard drives. You might also try another windows disc. If they get scratched they cant copy all the necessary installation files.

GAMING COMPUTER - Intel q9550 @ 3.4ghz | EVGA GTX 260 core 216 | Gigabyte ds3l | 6gb Gskill DDR2 800 ram | Silverstone 700 watt psu | WD 640gb hdd | Seagate 300gb hdd | LG dvd burner | Samsung dvd burner | Antec p182 case | logitech 2.1 speakers | logitech g11 keyboard | Samsung 25.5in 1900x1200 monitor | 19in 1440x900 secondary monitor | Windows 7 64bit | SERVER - Gigabyte 785g motherboard | AMD Phenom 9650 | 6gb ram | three 1.5tb hdd | Seagate 1tb hdd | WD 750gb hdd | two 300gb hdd | Maxtor 200gb hdd | Ark rackmount case | CentOS 5.5
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20. March 2009 @ 15:11 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I pointed him towards a couple of simple live cd's, TinyMe and PCLinuxOS, but all suggestions are good.
(Had only stopped using the P4 as the networking became flaky, and putting PCLinuxOS on there today, i see why, the onboard NIC is playing silly beggars. Have dug out a couple PCI NIC's and will sort when i can be bothered)



Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. March 2009 @ 15:13

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20. March 2009 @ 16:58 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by cincyrob:
i just bought a new 500gb segate put it in and am trying to load windows on a fresh drive and im getting the same error i cant laod windows? do i need to clear cmos on the mobo and try it? should i try putting the sata cable in a different port????? i dont know what to do now??

Rob,
If you know someone with a CPU you can try, I would certainly give that a shot. I know I was getting all sorts of weird messages on the screen, along with BSODs and lockups. When I removed the e6750 and replaced it with the D-940, it worked fine! So did the e6750's replacement. I had tried new Sata and IDE cables, a different hard drive and different memory. If you can get your hands on a different CPU, that should tell the story! You could also try clearing the CMOS!

Best Regards,
Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


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