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The Official Graphics Card and PC gaming Thread
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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4. March 2013 @ 19:09 |
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One quick note, you do know that the GTX680 is a slower card than the HD7970 1Ghz Edition, doesn't scale quite as well in multiple, and handles higher resolutions less well right?
There are still plenty of reasons why the GTX680 may be better, but the reasons that make it worse all seem quite pertinent for your usage case...
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harvardguy
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4. March 2013 @ 20:38 |
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Well,
That's a very good point, Sam. I sure wouldn't want to get slower.
If you have some benchmarks for me, please let me know what you have, because I did read some things to the contrary in regard to the Lightning version of the 680 (and those might not be true anymore with the locked bios.) It was regarding 2560x1600 gaming, and it was a hardocp review - just the synthesis of it in a forum - and I know those guys have an nvidia bias. I didn't go into the main review at that time.
I would REALLY be interested in some benchmarks - whatever you can link me to would be super!
What do you like in a 7970 these days? Let's say you decided to pick up a couple of cards this year instead of waiting for 18 months? What have you come across that you like?
I think I'm approaching this whole thing from the standpoint of triple sli or triple cf. The motherboard is going to be a factor in the style of the graphic card cooler - turbine, or multi-fan design. I read about a user who has the 3-fan gigabyte 7970, three of them in tri cf, but his mobo offers slot 1, slot 4 and slot 7 graphics slots, so he has that one slot of gap.
Not mine. Mine, the nehalem gigabyte, will be 3, 5 and 7. The evga gtx680 is a turbine, that according to their video works ok even when plasced right next to the other card.
So, approaching this from the very beginning - do I go out and get that 1, 4, and 7 motherboard, and spend the extra $600 with mobo, cpu and memory, to free myself from the 3, 5 and 7 spacing, or instead, just "settle" for a turbine design, like the evga 680, which quite a few have over-clocked at 1300.
Will that end up a lot less powerful than 3 gigabyte 7950s also clocked about the same, or would performance be similar? Or even if not similar, would either tri system give me all I would need for the next 3 years at ultra max, barring crysis 4?
thanks,
Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. March 2013 @ 23:02
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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5. March 2013 @ 02:53 |
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Also, last I checked HardOCP do not have an nvidia bias :P
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harvardguy
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5. March 2013 @ 07:59 |
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Wow, beautiful graphs, thanks Sam.
Those charts show a 15% difference between the 7970 GE and the reference gtx680, which sounds about right. I'm looking at one particular 680 that is factory overclocked, and outperforms the reference 680, probably narrowing that 15% gap down to about 5% on those two titles.
The card is the 4 gig evga classified, $599 on newegg, which comes with stock clocks at 1111, and boost at 1176. It overclocks for most reviewers to 1250 or 1300 with no voltage adjustment - nvidia has the voltage locked to 1.175. The card seems to run quite cool - the turbine does its job well and is not especially loud, which is a surprise.
The attraction of a turbine, is the feasibility of running tri sli on air cooling, with no gap between cards, which I would be forced to do on the nehalem motherboard.
There ARE zero turbines on the 7970 Ghz side. On the 680 side, the Classified seems to be the best of the turbines.
That's where I am so far. What do you think?
Rich
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AfterDawn Addict
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5. March 2013 @ 08:05 |
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Ok,
Post 8409:
Ok a few things about this:
1. I did run two HD4870X2s for QuadCF, but for the last 2 years have been running two HD6970s, which is just two GPUs.
2. Two HD7970s would probably run on a 750W Toughpower. The two 4870X2s (rated at 286W) only saw me pull 690-710W DC out of the PSU in the most power-demanding (not the same as performance-demanding!) titles, and HD7970s use a fair bit less power than that. However, I'd have two reservations about doing this:
a) The Toughpower 750W, although a solid CWT unit almost identical to the original Corsair TX underneath, does not suggest it is really well suited to that sort of load - I had the exact same unit, and when pulling below 200W with a dual core E4300 and X1900XT, the fan would still eventually reach full speed (1900rpm at 140mm is pretty loud!). Thermals in this system at the time were not good, but that is a very low wattage for a PSU to be running at full fan speed.
b) The HD7970, like the HD6970 before it [and to a lesser extent the HD4870/X2 as well] does not use all of its electronics when running games. If you burn test it or run GPU computing, the TDP will jump to be a lot higher. Under these circumstances, you may be pushing things a bit, especially with an LGA1366 Core i7, which use far more power than any CPU I have had in my systems, stock vs stock. If you've overclocked it, the situation gets worse.
Therefore, a modern high-efficiency 850W seems a solid recommendation for two HD7970s. Probably overkill, but giving you enough of a safety zone.
For three HD7970s I'd probably say 1000W, for four? 1200W as an absolute minimum. If you were to burn test four HD7970s with an overclocked LGA1366 i7, you could potentially pull 1300W out of the unit, so 1200 might even be a bit on the thin side.
3. You are correct, mechanical disk drives, like any mechanical equipment, need to be used periodically. It's something that's causing me some concern, as the hassle of running mechanical drives until they're warm when you have so many stored in the cupboard is becoming increasingly annoying.
4. I don't see AMD going anywhere as a result of those console contracts, you're right, but that doesn't mean to say they won't eventually fill the lower-to-middle end of the market for GPUs like they have CPUs. That hasn't happened yet, but given their complacent approach to the market at the moment, I really do wonder.
5. I haven't filtered my side intakes primarily because I no longer really use them, that level of cooling just isn't necessary with the HD6970s.
6. If you are buying HD7970s, make sure they are the 1Ghz edition versions, as there's a fairly considerable performance difference between the two, as the two graphs I posted earlier illustrate.
7. With regard to upgrading lower down in the food chain, be a little more cautious with the HD7850/7870. They're great value at the moment, considering how well they compare to the HD5870/6950/6970 of old, but although AMD have stated there will be no new high-end products this year, they did say some more cards would appear lower down the scale, based on the Sea Islands architecture. How low down, they haven't said. It's not inconceivable to suggest another one or two HD77/78 series products may appear at better performance/$ or performance/W this year.
8. AMD did say they intend to finally release a reference HD7990 this year, a whole year late. Whether it'll be at the original 925mhz clocks or the full 1Ghz each yet I'm not sure, but be very cautious of the non-reference HD7990. As with previous generations, the standard of manufacture and design in those top-end elite cards is appalling at any price, let alone with the enormous price tag they carry.
9. Never try and run eyefinity properly with DVI monitors, the displayport->DVI adapters just do not work for this purpose. Either get native displayport monitors, or use nvidia cards instead. You'll regret attempting to do otherwise when all your hair falls out. (This is not personal experience, but there is ample reporting of this from professional reviewers from almost every reputable site going)
10. Yes, even with a dual-GPU card you can run three GPUs in a 2+1 setup, with the same benefits/caveats. Tri-crossfire tends to scale a bit better than quad crossfire.
With non-reference cards, you suffer similar heat issues with a 2+1 as you would with a 1+1 or 2+2, as the heat will have a hard time escaping without considerable forced ventilation coming from a side intake. However, with reference blowers, 2+1 actually works fairly well as the cards are different lengths, so the intake side of the blower is relatively unobstructed for both cards.
11. Never buy something with the intention of modifying it, unless absolutely necessary. That 'reactor' whatever it is on the back of the MSI cards will be there for a reason. If the cards don't work together out of the box, find another brand that will.
Post 8411 (Omegaman):
No, they use more power than at idle because they run at full clocks/voltages, but they aren't under load, so they will not use their full TDP. With older cards like the GTX260 you would typically see them draw 40W in windows, and perhaps 75W in the BIOS. Nothing like the 200W or so maximum.
Post 8412 (Rich):
1. NEVER hot-swap any legacy hardware connectors. This includes IDE cables and Molex power connectors (large 4-pin for disk drives, small floppy drive connectors, and 3/4-pin fan connectors). Doing this with SATA/SAS including their power connectors is safe, provided you have AHCI enabled on your motherboard. Without it, it's not dangerous, it just won't achieve anything.
2. Allied PSUs are cheap tat, like all cheap PSUs. They are just as likely to destroy your equipment as any other cheap PSU. Don't take solace in the fact that it successfully tripped the short-circuit protection, as I had that with my Qtec (Faulty molex causing a short it successfully stopped) - the same Qtec that set fire to my floppy drive and blew a 13A 230V mains fuse in the process.
Post 8418 (Rich):
Just a quick one here, you will want 3GB of video memory if you're running the best of the best at 2560x1600 in a multi-GPU setup. There are a small handful of titles that will see well over 2.5GB usage at that res now, and that's enough to flummox 2GB cards pretty badly
Also, you have to run Windows 7 or better [ignoring the existence of Vista] to run 3 or 4 GPUs. XP cannot recognise any more than 2. 32-bit XP (and you don't want the 64-bit version!) can also only see 3.5GB of system memory, which isn't really enough for some modern games either.
If it were me in your situation, I'd get a new CPU board and RAM, probably something like an i7 3770K and 16GB, then go with two HD7970GEs, maybe three. On your current Core 2, you won't have the CPU power you need to back that graphical capability up. Remember the CPU overheads of running multi-GPU!
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harvardguy
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5. March 2013 @ 09:16 |
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Originally posted by Sam:
If you were to burn test four HD7970s with an overclocked LGA1366 i7, you could potentially pull 1300W out of the unit, so 1200 might even be a bit on the thin side.
Okay, well I had been considering a 1200 until a day or so ago. There was one marked down at newegg from $320 on sale at $250. But now I'm thinking about not concerning myself with the sale, but more with making sure I don't buy too small of a unit as you suggest.
So in the $320 to $360 range, there are two 1500s that might work, the Enermax 1500 6 rail, or the toughpower 1475 two rail. The enermax at 180 mm long forces me to push my bottom intake phantek 140mm aside about 1/4" - redrilling some holes. The Toughpower at 200mm long forces me to move it about an inch. I'm inclined to go with the Enermax. Any preferences?
Quote:
If you are buying HD7970s, make sure they are the 1Ghz edition versions, as there's a fairly considerable performance difference between the two, as the two graphs I posted earlier illustrate.
Hmmm.
I was just about to suggest that maybe I should take a closer look at these 7970 turbines:
But none of them is the 1Ghz edition, so now I won't bother.
Quote:
you will want 3GB of video memory if you're running the best of the best at 2560x1600 in a multi-GPU setup. There are a small handful of titles that will see well over 2.5GB usage at that res now, and that's enough to flummox 2GB cards pretty badly
Ok, that settles that, no 2 gig cards will be considered.
Quote:
With non-reference cards, you suffer similar heat issues with a 2+1 as you would with a 1+1 or 2+2, as the heat will have a hard time escaping without considerable forced ventilation coming from a side intake. However, with reference blowers, 2+1 actually works fairly well as the cards are different lengths, so the intake side of the blower is relatively unobstructed for both cards.
I do have two strong 140mm phanteks blowing air into the side of the case, so that should help some.
I'm not 100% clear on "reference blower" - you must mean what I have been calling a turbine - yes, a blower type cooler.
So in that case, you are raising the idea of using a 7990 together with a 7970. That might be particularly good on that nehalem card because I think only the first slot is 16x bandwidth, so that's where the dual would go. I appreciate your idea about starting fresh, but if I get the nehalem for free with 12 gigs of ram, I'm $600 ahead.
Well, back to the graphics - yes I do want a minimum of 3 for starters, for the best of the best as you say. I had lost sight of the 7990 idea, and I had pretty much figured on using 3 discrete cards. Therefore, I was focusing on turbines, or "blowers" as you call them, as my post one up discusses, and wanting a 1200 core-clock device with more than 2 gigs ram, so that led me to the evga classified 680 4gb card.
But if you are now suggesting that I take a closer look at picking up a 7990, and pairing it with a 7970, that quite intrigues me. You also mention that there will be an official reference 7990 coming fairly soon. When will we be seeing that, do you suppose?
EDIT:
Hmmm. The reviews are not too bad.
For the price the 3 Classifieds were going to cost me, I could get two of these 7990s right now, and a 1500 watt psu, and follow in your footsteps with quad cf. Or should I wait for the reference 7990?
Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5. March 2013 @ 09:36
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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5. March 2013 @ 12:29 |
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To be honest, once you cross over the 1200W barrier, there aren't really any PSU brands I'm happy with. To need more than a 1200W PSU you're putting some serious current through a unit, and neither Enermax or Thermaltake convince me that they're really up to the task. I certainly wouldn't want to run a system drawing that much for multiple years off such units.
The best PSU I can probably think of in one unit without using a rather dodgy 'bridged PSU' mode is a Seasonic X-1250. It runs a single 104A 12V rail (a pretty terrifying concept I have to admit) which should be sufficient to handle four HD7970GEs and an original i7 overclock reasonably well.
The i7 and X58 chipset at stock will draw about 12A at maximum load (around 22-25 if overclocked heavily), and the HD7970s under normal gaming load should pull about 20 each leaving you with a total draw of 92A, or 102A if overclocking the CPU heavily.
That leaves very little room to breathe. If you were to GPU-compute on the graphics cards or burn-test them, you'll be pulling 24A per GPU, totalling 96A just on the graphics alone. Add an overclocked i7 900 series chip to that (the sort of overclock needed for 4Ghz), and you're looking at about 120A all in, or 1440W just for the CPU + graphics. When considering fans and disk drives on top of that, 1500W would barely cover it. I think to have this level of hardware absurdity, you really need two PSUs - I'd probably say two 850s or two 1000s.
Of course, you could just buy a current-gen CPU like the i7 3770K and leave it stock (at which point it draws only 6A, versus the 20+ of the overclocked i7 900 series) which would allow you to get away with about 102A maximum draw when running GPU compute (assuming the CPU was under load at the time, otherwise perhaps 98-99A), which a 1250W PSU could handle on a short-term basis.
In a normal gaming environment, with a stock Ivy Bridge CPU like the 3770K and four stock HD7970 1Ghz cards, you'd be pulling a modest 86A in games, so probably less than 90A for the whole system, allowing you plenty of breathing room on a 1250W PSU.
Now let's face it, if $2000 is going on graphics cards, and nearly $300 just on a power supply, an extra $600 or so on a new CPU, motherboard and memory isn't really going to be a bank-breaker for you is it? :)
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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5. March 2013 @ 14:32 |
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As far as an official HD7990 is concerned (or any of the other announced products for that matter) we have no sense of timescale at all, I imagine it'll probably be some time in the summer.
Just one other thought, ludicrously expensive as they are, if we're planning a big hardware binge here, have you considered three GTX Titans? I've no idea how long it'd take you to find three, and it's $3000 on graphics hardware alone, but they're solid 6GB cards and solve the problem of being able to run multiple displays without needing displayport, without the necessity of buying slower cards to do it.
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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5. March 2013 @ 14:45 |
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Yeah, I'd say it's in need of re-paste LOL!
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
AfterDawn Addict
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5. March 2013 @ 14:46 |
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Yup, sure looks like it to me :P
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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5. March 2013 @ 15:58 |
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Well they certainly didn't use the grain of rice method LOL!!! The glob I got out of it is an easy gram! Or, the size of a peanut(w/o shell).
I won't be using as much, but I'm uncertain whether to put a square gob in center, or use a card to smooth it out perfectly.
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
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ddp
Moderator
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5. March 2013 @ 18:50 |
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spread it so is even. why is it dirty in there & i'm not talking about the cpu?
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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5. March 2013 @ 18:55 |
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Originally posted by ddp:
spread it so is even. why is it dirty in there & i'm not talking about the cpu?
I put a square glob in the center. I'll see what happens LOL! It used the whole syringe by the way! Which is still less than it was before. Should be ample though.
I think it's "Dirty" because of the Coolit Eco fluid that got in there. It saturated the dust, causing it to adhere to some areas.
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
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ddp
Moderator
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5. March 2013 @ 19:19 |
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dirty, dirty, dirty!!! could use rubbing alcohol & a stiff brush to clean it up.
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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5. March 2013 @ 19:23 |
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Originally posted by ddp:
dirty, dirty, dirty!!! could use rubbing alcohol & a stiff brush to clean it up.
Meh, the camera simply accented/exaggerated the look :p
Though I did look, and couldn't find Rubbing alcohol.
I did take an air can to some of it though.
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5. March 2013 @ 19:24
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harvardguy
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6. March 2013 @ 07:35 |
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Well, I don't wanna say nothin - it's not my place. But don't people get banned for having computers that dirty?
---------------------
Sam, hardware binge? Yeah, I guess you're right. But still, $600 is $600.
Well, actually there's more to it than that. If I get the rig, it's from a family member (who got me the 9450) and I don't want to say "no I don't want the i7, Sam wants me to get something else."
You know what I mean.
But at one time he actually thought I would fix the i7 for him, and he'd use that one as his photo server. However, I explained that the processor on the server wouldn't be participating in the photo editing at all, just serving up the files, so the last time we were on the subject, he suggested that I could have the i7.
But if he says "You know what, I think I'm gonna keep the i7" then I'll say, "great, no problem, Sam has another one in mind for me."
LOL
Hey, that doubling up of power supplies sounds interesting. If you weren't suggesting it, I'd say it was something Kevin dreamed up to start more fires, or to make his computer even dirtier - if such a thing is possible.
Okay, here's your last chance to NOT bridge the PSUs. I found this Lepa power supply: LEPA G Series G1600-MA 1600W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Power Supply which is made by enermax. It runs at 1600 watts steady, and can handle up to 1700 watts maximum load.
Not a great warranty, only 3 years, and doesn't weigh very much if that matters, but reviewed decently at HardOCP.
However, if we're still doing the double psu, then I measured my case every which way, and I think I can make it work. We could do it with a couple of 850s, but it seems to make more sense to get to that power level, 1700 watts, by putting the largest one I can find in front, so it will vent to the outside like normal.
To that end I was pleased to stumble across this 1200 by thermalright: (If we complement it with a second psu, then we really won't be running that much juice through it, because of the other psu.) The model is Thermaltake SP-1200M 1200W ATX 12V 2.3 & EPS 12V 2.92 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply.
The really nice thing is it's only 6.3 inches long and doesn't hit my fan at all. My current toughpower 750 is 6.5 inches, and I have about a quarter inch of room. But most of what I am looking at is 180mm, meaning 7.1 inches, forcing me to push the fan over and drill some holes. With this power supply I wouldn't have to do that.
If you don't like that one, then there are a couple more that are 7.1 inches, like a Thermaltake Toughpower Grand TPG-1200M 1200W ATX 12V v2.3 & EPS 12V v2.92 SLI Certified CrossFire Certified 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply
or an ENERMAX MAXREVO Series EMR1350EWT 1350W ATX12V / EPS12V v2.92, v2.8 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Power Supply
or this PC Power and Cooling Silencer Mk III Series 1200W Modular Power Supply features 100% Nippon Chem-Con Capacitors and Metallic Modular Connector. All of those are 7.1 inches long so I would have to drill a few holes. Not too big of a deal.
Now, for the second smaller unit, I believe I am going to have to sit it on its side, and place it oriented sideways, up on a little shelf right behind the front middle fan, which puts it above the bottom 5.25 bay, so I don't have to do any hack sawing. The case is about 9 inches wide, and the one I like best is only 5.5 inches long, which leaves 3.5 inches for the power AC plug on one end - the end next to the front side cover - and room on the other side, the back of the psu, for the power cables which can go through my cable management on that back side of the rig to feed two gpus only.
So for the little secondary psu, the one I have in mind is the Thermaltake SMART Series SP-650PCBUS 650W ATX 12V 2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply which has a 5 year warranty, and like I say is only 5.5 inches long. It's new on newegg, with no reviews.
The main thing I like is the short form factor.
If you don't like that one, here's this one: CORSAIR HX series HX650 650W ATX12V v2.2 / EPS12V 2.91 SLI Ready 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply which at 6.3 inches is .8 inches longer than the other and will be a bit harder to manage, but I can do it.
So 1200 plus either of those, is 1850, is that enough wattage for you?
If not, then for the second psu, we could get the CORSAIR GS700 700W ATX12V v2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply which would give us 1900 watts, at 6.3 inches long,
or even the CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX850 V2 850W ATX12V v2.31/ EPS12V v2.92 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC High Performance Power Supply which would give us 2050 watts.
Rich
EDIT:
Are we sure about those Power colors?
Because this is a really good product. I just went to my email and there was a notification that these were back in stock. I did that because I was wondering if they ever really become available. I guess they just don't stay in stock.
The product is highly binned, comes factory overclocked, and for most, it runs at 1200, if not 1250, if not 1300. It does have the 4 gigs of memory, but not the 384 bit bandwidth of the new Titan, or the Tahiti.
By the way, no way am I going to consider the Titan, no matter how nice it looks on paper - $2,000 is madness enough, $3,000 is mortgaging you, Jeff, Kevin, and ddp.
But for $2,000, I can get 3 of these classys (with tax) and I believe they'll handle me nicely for the next 3 years - or for the same money, two 7990s. The only thing is, the quad cf 7990s generate a lot more heat, and burn a lot more energy. With 3 classys we could work with that one seasonic 1250 power supply.
So are we sure about quad? if we are, then let's charge ahead, lol.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. March 2013 @ 08:01
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. March 2013 @ 08:34 |
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I can understand not wanting to turn down an offer from family, but in all honesty, this is a grand investment plan you have here, and using an original i7, especially if overclocking, is going to make life a lot harder to achieve what you want. Given the considerable amount you're willing to spend, you may as well keep the i7 for something and get a higher-grade CPU for something else.
Either that or you're welcome to tone down the level of expenditure so that it fits in a more reasonable power envelope, but you'll be knowingly compromising the performance of the new build for the sake of your family member's pride, not just in not buying as many GPUs, but also for running a slower CPU. Remember that an i7 3770K is almost 70% faster than an i7 920, and that makes a difference.
The LEPA unit is seriously powerful at 133A 12V combined, but I have never been that impressed with the longevity of Enermax units, and the deviation in voltage at full load is rather high, even if the unit doesn't fall outside the 5% spec.
Reviews on the Thermaltake SP-1200M are too sparse to say enough about it - no detailed review means it's not certain what is underneath doing the work.
A detailed review of the TPG-1200M indicates that the unit really isn't solid enough to be recommended for full 1200W use, suffering from high ripple and considerable voltage drops on the minor rails during crossload testing.
The thing with the GTX680 Classified is, it's ultimately still a GTX680. You have the extra memory covered, and a 5% increase in clock speeds, but that alone is not going to make the GTX680 superior to the HD7970GE. At a full 50% more expensive than a 1Ghz HD7970 from Gigabyte, or 36% more expensive than a radial-cooled MSI model, that's a hefty price to pay for DVI ports.
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. March 2013 @ 08:43 |
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The following was taken on original 925mhz HD7970s shortly after their launch in early 2012 - figures are relative performance to indicate scaling.
AvP: 100/185/278/346
Arkham City: 100/117/121/128
Battlefield 3: 100/188/267/354
Crysis 2: 100/195/196/197
DiRT 3: 100/188/N/A (At time of testing, DiRT 3 with three or four GPUs triggered a driver fault)
Hard Reset: 100/181/234/317
Metro 2033: 100/167/227/273
Skyrim: 100/185/185/190
Shogun 2: 100/170/N/A/325 (Not supported with 3 GPUs, 2 or 4 required)
As you see, there are some odd artifacts with quad crossfire, and the same was observed when I used it historically with HD4870X2s. Some games work great, others do not and never will, the more GPUs you have the more of a gamble it is - but even that rule is not black and white, as shown by the odd situation with Shogun 2.
I don't have a similarly proficient review of three GPUs from nvidia yet to compare with, will have a look tonight and see what I can find.
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harvardguy
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6. March 2013 @ 22:43 |
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Wow, that Toughpower Grand isn't so grand after all. Well, if one can't count on Toughpower Grand gold no less, then that discounts the entire Thermaltake family in my mind, including the little one with no reviews.
You didn't mention the PCP&C. I didn't catch the weight of that unit, but that is a name that has always stood for quality in PSUs. Heard anything about that one? At 7.1 inches, I like it better than the Seasonic at 7.5 inches.
(I found the weight - it's 6.3 pounds - more than the Lepa at only 5 pounds - but on the other hand, the Seasonic is a nice hefty 10 full pounds. You know how they used to ask, "How heavy is the power supply?" But anyway, I'm being silly - if I have to move the fan a quarter inch, moving it a half inch is the same thing - drill a few holes, tape over the exposed holes, no big deal. Certainly not a big deal compared to putting a second power supply INSIDE the case. So if you like the AMAZINGLY NICE AND HEAVY 10 POUND Seasonic Gold the best, that's good enough for me, lol.)
7970 GRAPHIC CARD SCALING
Sam, those are some amazing numbers.
AvP, Battlefield 3, Hard Reset, Metro 2033 = scaling pretty nicely all the way to 4.
Crysis 2: nice scaling and no benefit from more than 2
Skyrim: nice scaling and no benefit from more than 2
Dirt 3: nice scaling, and no benefit from more than 2 - in fact crashes
Arkham City: weak scaling, and no benefit from more than 2
Shogun 2: nice scaling to 4, but 3 not supported (yes weird)
I can sort of see why you are targeting in on crossfire, and not tri or quad cf.
Yes, if you can find it, that same kind of info would be very helpful on the gtx680.
TO GO GREEN, OR NOT TO GO GREEN
I am not sure that I am the greenest person around - I sometimes do leave the lights on, but in general during this past cold winter, I have worn sweaters to compensate, including at times a scarf and even a pulldown wool cap. Jeff would laugh living in Alaska as he does - no Montana, or is it North Dakota. I forget - some place REALLY cold, that's all I can remember, lol.
But the problem with cards that pull giant amounts of power, like the 8800s did, even in idle, also like the 4870x2 did - the problem goes beyond the increased operating cost. One must factor in the heat buildup, and the corresponding noise pollution from fans going at full blast, and from even having to occasionally turn on the A/C. I don't have to tell you, you lived it for two years.
Today, by contrast, you don't even have to run the side intakes.
You probably don't believe you're hearing this from the guy who ran two modded kaze intake fans full blast to support gaming in that beautiful piano-black sonata mid-tower case. Things became so peacefully quiet after I got the fan controller. Best $14 ebay investment ever.
But then, getting ready for business, I went into the software and maxed out the 8800 fan, and later the HIS fan, so I could hear, to make sure everything was working. Then I got back up, walked over to the front of the spedo, and cranked up the kazes and the loud rear 80 array, and grabbed the headphones.
I would still be in that case with an added hole in the floor and modded feet, allowing the 2nd HIS fan to poke through, if I hadn't remembered about the garaged spedo sitting patiently in the box brand new for 4 years. LOL
So here I am - do I plunge headlong down that noisy hot path once again, or try a different approach?
MAYBE ONE POWER SUPPLY AT A TIME IS BEST
Getting back to power supplies, I am almost thinking - "A second power supply inside the case? Really? Sitting on its edge, adding heat, blocking the middle front fan? Do I for sure want to do that?"
The techie modder in me, the guy who would have added feet to the sonata, says "Yes, let's make it work!" The guy who bought the fan controller to bring a few moments of peace to 3000 rpm kaze-land says "Are you sure?" Or maybe he says "Are you nuts?"
I am almost thinking now - let's design the graphics solution around the lovely 10 pound Seasonic Gold. With that in mind, if we feel we're pushing past the limit of 102 amps, 1250 watts, then let's not add the additional hardware.
Looking at your numbers, gpu compute at 24 amps per gpu, that's 96 right there as you said. We have to add in 3 disk drives, at 12 watts each is 3 amps, and I would say 2 amps total for fans. So there's only 1 amp left over for the cpu. You said we only need 6 for stock 3770, but I calculate we only have 1. And while the 3770 is faster, to think that I'm never going to want to overclock it - well I just don't know about that. With 4 gpus, doesn't it seem that I might find myself cpu bound some day and wanting to overclock the thing?
So if we toss out the idea of a second psu inside the case, which is what I'm thinking now, and design with the seasonic in mind, then we have to toss out the idea of quad, and stick with 3 gpus max. If we do that, I can run the sick energy hungry nehalem for now, and then upgrade later to a 3770 or whatever comes afterward.
IF THREE, THEN WHICH THREE?
So if we're back to 3 cards, which three do we want?
As I said, there are no blower 7970 GE cards. They all have very sexy multi-fan cooling solutions.
Three cards like that inside the case, tossing heat all around, would create a nice little hot box. And if I am forced to run 3,5,7, that could create temperature problems for me on at least one of the three, if not all three.
It seems to me that I want a blower style.
So I'm back to the super expensive classified at $599, about $2000 after tax and shipping. It sure is not the price difference, there isn't any. And I lose a gpu. But I gain back operating efficiency, less noise, and less heat. And for 30" gaming, hopefully 3 will last me for a few years, with maybe a cpu upgrade during that time.
I get a very well-designed blower solution - quiet, cool, energy efficient, and which, when overclocked without any voltage adjustment, comes pretty close to the 7970 Ghz, while still pulling less juice.
Overclocked to max beyond the factory overclock, but with no overvolting, running almost continuously at boost with its additional power headroom beyond stock 680, at least from one bench I looked at, it seems to draw about 3 amps less than a stock 7970 GE.
While the performance increase of about 8% beyond its factory overclock helps a lot, it is still beaten by a good 10% in 30" crysis framerates, but pulls even in Metro 2033. Of course you could then overclock the 7970 GE and you would go flying past, but that +3 amp differential would increase. Noise too.
So at tri sli, we've got 9 amps room of less power draw, and a turbine design dumping heat out the back of the case, just like my current HIS IceQ 7950s, allowing for the classified gtx680 2-slot cards to be placed right next to each other (unlike the HIS) so mobo layout is not too significant on whether these will work, meaning that 3,5,7 is okay - I don't need to go find the more ideal 1,4,7 layout.
BUILD QUALITY SEEMS EXCEPTIONAL
And in all the reading I have done about it over the last few days, I have acquired a great deal of respect for the build quality. You can go through the reviews - absent are the typical problems. The problems I'm talking about are like the problem reviews that plagued even the HIS IceQ - and if I had read those later negative reviews, I probably would never have bought the product.
I was initially attracted to the HIS for the turbine - the blower. And the IceQ brand had meant high end to me - from seeing it around over the years. I totally raved about the build quality of the HIS IceQ 7950. I still feel that way. But apparently I was super lucky to have gotten two really good units - I was shocked later to see others who seemed to have had much worse experiences.
It really began to look hit and miss. What a shame. Not good for one's rep.
But regarding this "classy" as many call it, it appears to be all "hit" and no miss. They guard their rep very carefully.
Evga must not only cherry pick the best chips, but they must also do some burn-in on every unit to keep the vast majority of the reviews quite positive. Perhaps the extra testing is why it seems that they don't build very many at a time.
Man, do I sound like a fanboi or what?
Well, yes, I am impressed.
I went over to look at the green guys because I had wanted the MSI Lightning 7970, but the damn fools didn't put a dual link dvi port on the card. What a bunch of idiots.
They got totally locked into that eye-finity thing and said "screw you" to high res non-displayport gaming.
Other than that, they build a solid piece of hardware, I believe. So there it is, over on the green side, and yes, it does have the dual link dvi port.
But over there in greenville, somehow I stumbled upon the Evga card, and in my mind, they pulled ahead of the Lightning.
It's your fault Sam, for saying very recently that, while Nvidia is still a sneaky company with questionable ethics (ala activision - my words) their products are now reasonable quality, reasonable power draw, and reasonable performance.
FINAL THOUGHTS
So here we are - I very much like your 10 pound power supply.
The more guarded side of me doesn't like the idea of trying to cram an extra power supply into the case. With good reason you don't like any of the other power supplies, and to that I can only say - "good thing we have an invaluable hardware reference like you around to rely on."
So, as far as "grand investment plan" goes . . . .
. . . . with the thought of sticking that extra power supply somewhere inside, quad cf looks less and less like fun and excitement, and more and more like horrendous power suck, noise, and giant amounts of heat - reminding me of the negative side of what you went through.
Today's cards handle eyefinity. I only want to game on one monitor, albeit 30", but that's "only" 4 megapixel, not 6 or 7. At today's performance level, three cards running full blast should work out okay - with the right choice of architecture - providing me with "best of the best" as you said, or darn close to it.
Am I wrong? (I can't believe how fanboish I sound.)
Rich
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6. March 2013 @ 23:01 |
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I thought Jeff lived in Wisconsin :S Minnesota, wisconsin, north dakota. They all get pretty cold during the winter. I lived in minnesota for a few years.
Still trying to decide what to do with the GTX 260. I may save it for a build, and sell it that way. If I can build a cheap, agreeable system, and make 50 - 80USD on it, I could be happy with that ;) I'll think about it...
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yeah, his public profile says he's from Wisconsin.
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. March 2013 @ 23:03
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harvardguy
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6. March 2013 @ 23:21 |
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Yeah, I knew Montana was wrong - Wisconsin, Thanks for the correction. I have a friend who went over to No Dakota recently to get some trucking experience. So you actually lived in Minnesota? - wow - cold. You're near Portland now, right? That must seem comparatively much warmer.
Is putting it in a build more money than just selling the part?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. March 2013 @ 23:22
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6. March 2013 @ 23:24 |
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Originally posted by harvardguy:
Yeah, I knew Montana was wrong - Wisconsin, Thanks for the correction. I have a friend who went over to No Dakota recently to get some trucking experience. So you actually lived in Minnesota? - wow - cold. You're near Portland now, right? That must seem comparatively much warmer.
Oh yeah! I experienced -45F while in Minnesota. That's a bit too cold for me. My fathers ex girlfriend had a funeral while it was -70F! Apparently they couldn't be outside for more than a few minutes at a time :S
Yeah, I'm a bit less than 3hrs from portland. Where I was born and raised.
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harvardguy
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7. March 2013 @ 00:01 |
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Holy crissssakes -45. I was right the first time, Alaska. Or the North Pole!
Your father's ex girlfriend had a funeral BECAUSE it was -70 - HERS!!!
Sheesh, can people actually walk outside for a minute to get into the car, without freezing to death as they turn the key. Would the car even start anyway?
Thank you very much, but I'll stay in California - in fact I'm so cold thinking about -70 that maybe I'll buy the two 7990s and turn this trailer into a sauna with all the heat coming out of the case! I can see why you hurried back to the west coast. How long did you live there, 48 hours?
Rich
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7. March 2013 @ 00:07 |
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I was young, broadening my horizons. Lived out there for over 2yrs, moved back to oregon, my dad needed help, so I moved back to minnesota for 3yrs, and then we both moved back to oregon in 2006. Haven't looked back. Whew! LOL!
I believe it was her fathers funeral.
Yeah, my PC tower puts out plenty of heat(not to mention my stereo, monitor, and HDTV). I've had the heater vents closed all winter :S I open the window occasionally if it gets above 75F in here. I went out of town 2 weeks ago, came back, and it was 62F in here. Felt great! LOL!
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harvardguy
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7. March 2013 @ 01:26 |
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It got down to 51 here - in the house!! I had so many layers on I couldn't move. Southern California it wasn't. I think it some kind of a breeze that blew down from Alaska. It only started warming up about a week ago. Yes, today was about 62 - almost bearable. Last week it hit 71 in the house, finally!
So you and your dad moved back in 06, nice. Are you guys roommates? What does your dad do?
Anything with computers - like I mean, does he also play angry birds, and burn sh*t up? hahaha
Rich
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