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Sony not expecting $200 Blu-ray players before next year
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 6 March, 2008
Despite speculation by some that we may see a $200 Blu-ray player before year's end, no such product appears to be in sight. In fact, the Chinese companies responsible for the boom in low priced DVD players a few short years ago don't even seem to have a chance to be licensed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA).
Sony Electronics CEO Stan Glasgow told Gizmodo "I don't think $200 is going ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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goodswipe
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6. March 2008 @ 17:53 |
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Quote:
SO if I order from U-Shop then Universal will know about my TP preferences. Oh well, at least it's environmentally friendly.
Better watch out, you're gonna be receiving Angel Soft and Charmin TP coupons in the mail.
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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6. March 2008 @ 18:04 |
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ripxrush
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6. March 2008 @ 19:57 |
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of course not $ grubbing wh0rez, if HD_DVD where still a contender you would bet your Arse you would have a sub $200 if not almost $100 this year now that there is no more competition there will be nothing to drive the market down in price & up in quality/options
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akkuma
Junior Member
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6. March 2008 @ 21:00 |
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wow people are willing to give thier privacy for a dam ps3. only a fool would leave his ps3 hooked up online 247, soon u may have to log in or put in ur password just to watch a blu-ray movie. all these clowns who prayed for the demise of hd-dvd that without competition sony will monopolize the format and never lower prices!
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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6. March 2008 @ 21:37 |
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Originally posted by akkuma:
wow people are willing to give thier privacy for a dam ps3. only a fool would leave his ps3 hooked up online 247, soon u may have to log in or put in ur password just to watch a blu-ray movie. all these clowns who prayed for the demise of hd-dvd that without competition sony will monopolize the format and never lower prices!
I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...
1) HD-DVD hardware prices were dropped so heavily out of desperation to clear stock before they finally went under. This created artificial expectation among consumers for a price benchmark that this technology was simply not at yet. How much were DVD players when they were first introduced to the market? These HD players have entered the market at a lower price bracket and it's what... 10 years or so later (DVD was introduced in December 1995 to be exact).
2) This news article has clearly stated they anticipate Blu-ray players to be available in the $300 range by the end of next year. This in itself is already a major improvement in the price drop curve over the previous DVD technology. I remember regular DVD players sitting in the $500+ bracket for many years.
3) The PS2 was launched with a price tag of $749 in November 2000 (In Australia)... Now it is sold for $180. Even the original Playstation (PSX) was launched here at $699 back in 1995. We can already get a PS3 for that same price and it's 13 years later... Yet somehow that equals greediness from Sony.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. March 2008 @ 23:11
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elfman12
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6. March 2008 @ 23:51 |
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Quote:
I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...
Man, those 3 points are all stretches.
1. HD-DVD prices were under the $200 range around the time of the Paramount deal. Things were not "desperate" at that time, by far.
2. Regular DVD players were NOT $500 (average) for "many years". That's just nonsense. There were higher end players that were, and progressive scans, but player prices were under $200 within this same time frame of HD (under 3 years).
3. You're comparing PS2 prices at launch to now? That's just such a non-argument.
BR is pricey and will be for some time. No big news there. Those who want it can get it and enjoy it, and watch some fantastic movie presentations. But it's still pricey.
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Senior Member
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7. March 2008 @ 00:22 |
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Quote:
Quote:
I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...
Man, those 3 points are all stretches.
1. HD-DVD prices were under the $200 range around the time of the Paramount deal. Things were not "desperate" at that time, by far.
2. Regular DVD players were NOT $500 (average) for "many years". That's just nonsense. There were higher end players that were, and progressive scans, but player prices were under $200 within this same time frame of HD (under 3 years).
3. You're comparing PS2 prices at launch to now? That's just such a non-argument.
BR is pricey and will be for some time. No big news there. Those who want it can get it and enjoy it, and watch some fantastic movie presentations. But it's still pricey.
Man you are out right wrong, Ryu77 is right on the nut plus there are more examples like CDR's were $60 when they first came out and didn't drop to $3 a piece for a couple of years. Also those high end players were not progressive scan that didn't come out until just recent. DVD-DL's just recently dropped below $3 and it?s been how long since they were introduced? Especially when you can get BDR's at $12 and they hold 3x as much data and are relatively new.
I think Ryu77 is a mature adult that doesn't live in fantasy land watching cartoons pretending the world is something it's not.
Here is a little more fuel to fire, why would they waste their time adding a dead format like DivX to a BD player? The majority of people don't even know what DivX is, now I know that there is a real clan that swears by it but the numbers are just not there.
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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7. March 2008 @ 04:05 |
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Originally posted by elfman12:
Quote:
I am getting very tired of this argument but here's a couple facts to consider...
Man, those 3 points are all stretches.
1. HD-DVD prices were under the $200 range around the time of the Paramount deal. Things were not "desperate" at that time, by far.
2. Regular DVD players were NOT $500 (average) for "many years". That's just nonsense. There were higher end players that were, and progressive scans, but player prices were under $200 within this same time frame of HD (under 3 years).
3. You're comparing PS2 prices at launch to now? That's just such a non-argument.
BR is pricey and will be for some time. No big news there. Those who want it can get it and enjoy it, and watch some fantastic movie presentations. But it's still pricey.
Yes, thank you Mr-Movies. I am glad there are other adults here at Afterdawn.
elfman12, if you are going to make opposing statements it would be nice if you could bother to include some facts to back up your opinion. At this point without facts, that's all it is... Is an opinion. I will now post my defence on each of my 3 points that you stated your opinion on. Only once again I will include facts...
1) Are you the CEO of Toshiba or any of the other companies directly involved in HD-DVD? How on Earth could you possibly know how much they were sweating it out at that point in time in the format war. They would never reveal such information to the public. It would only be the people at the top of the chain that would know this. They are the people that control the retail environment of HD-DVD. It was obvious they were on a downhill slide for quite some time with the recent announcement of their demise. How long do you think it takes for such a highly invested in format to take a downward swing? It certainly didn't happen overnight.
2) Oh yes they were! If you don't mind me asking how old were you in 1995 when they were first introduced into the market? I remember buying a second hand Toshiba DVD player in 2001 for about $200 (Australian). It was anything but high end. It was as basic as can be. It was big and chunky, it had a set of composite (Yellow, Red, White) connectors on the rear and that was it! So 6 years after they hit the market, I paid $200 for a second hand DVD player and that was the best buy I could find in the classifieds. If I can recall correctly the same unit new was about $500 at the time. Also, remember all of the current Blu-ray players in the market today are considered "high end". As the news article also states, they do not want to allow those Chinese Butchers to manufacture their players at this point in time.
3) Ok then, let's look only at launch prices! As I previously said in Australia the original PSX console launched for $699 in 1995. The PS2 was launched for $749 in 2000. So 5 years later the replacement technology cost $50 extra. I don't even think this is in line with the inflation index. Now the PS3 launched in 2006 with 2 models in Australia, the 60gb model with a RRP of $999 and the 20gb model with a RRP $829. Since the previous Playstation models didn't even include hard drives, this really should be taken into the equation but I will be conservative and leave it in there to prove my point.
Now in the next part of my post I have used an inflation calculator from... http://www.rba.gov.au/calculator/calc.go
PSX launch: $699 in 1995 = $768.75 in 2000 (PS2 launch year) or $924.12 in 2006 (PS3 launch year)
PS2 launch: $749 in 2000 = $900.37 in 2006 (PS3 launch year)
So as you can see the PS3 with the 60gb launch of $999 was just over these figures, and the 20gb at $829 was under. As I said previously the HDD really should be taken into price consideration and be deducted from these figures. The PS3 is far more equipped than Sony's previous two models. So, I feel that we are getting a far better package for the same money we spent 10 odd years ago.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. March 2008 @ 04:28
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eatsushi
Senior Member
3 product reviews
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7. March 2008 @ 10:21 |
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Originally posted by Ryu77:
eatsushi, did you see I posted a reply to your kind advice?
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/636265/3849853
I am eager to hear if you had any further advice... :-D
Sorry I never got to your reply. The discussion about TP was distracting.
I don't work in the audio/video industry but it's a serious hobby. I do know a few people who do custom installation and professional calibration.
I showed one of them the picture of your setup and he had a few suggestions.
>He believes your components are still getting quite a bit of vibration not just from the center channel speaker but also from the two subwoofers right next to them. He suggests isolators for all of your components. He says the vibrapods are a good choice but there's others out there for all budgets.
>About your subs, as you may know the sound coming from a subwoofer is omnidirectional, meaning it's not clearly localized. The best placement of the subs depends your room acoustics. He suggests experimenting with different placements for your subs. He suspects placing them at the far corners of the room could yield better results.
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atomicxl
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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7. March 2008 @ 13:03 |
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I don't know who honestly thought that players would go for $200. I bet those $299 ones will be clearence on the out of spec players that can't be upgraded to in-spec. With HD-DVD dead, its either buy us for whatever price we say or continue to watch mediocre quality on your $1000+ tv.
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mscritsm
Junior Member
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7. March 2008 @ 14:56 |
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Originally posted by Pop_Smith:
And so it begins, the evil $ony corp. and its DBA associates are once again (at least for now) confirming they really don't want to take over DVD with their DRM-infection. They just want to make as much dough as possible.
Peace
It's more than just making as much dough as possible. It cost Sony hundreds of millions in payoffs to movie companies to get them to switch to Blu-ray. They have to make that back before they can ever make a penny in Blu-ray profit. Over time most of their Blu-ray profit will come from royalty fees on Blu-ray disks, but to get that payola money back as soon as possible they have to keep high royalty fees on the players themselves for the next year or two at least. And as others have noted, high player prices also help channel more Blu-ray buyers to the PS3 where Sony hopes to capture more revenue on value-added PS3 services having nothing to do with Blu-ray.
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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7. March 2008 @ 15:33 |
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Originally posted by eatsushi:
Originally posted by Ryu77:
eatsushi, did you see I posted a reply to your kind advice?
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/636265/3849853
I am eager to hear if you had any further advice... :-D
Sorry I never got to your reply. The discussion about TP was distracting.
I don't work in the audio/video industry but it's a serious hobby. I do know a few people who do custom installation and professional calibration.
I showed one of them the picture of your setup and he had a few suggestions.
>He believes your components are still getting quite a bit of vibration not just from the center channel speaker but also from the two subwoofers right next to them. He suggests isolators for all of your components. He says the vibrapods are a good choice but there's others out there for all budgets.
>About your subs, as you may know the sound coming from a subwoofer is omnidirectional, meaning it's not clearly localized. The best placement of the subs depends your room acoustics. He suggests experimenting with different placements for your subs. He suspects placing them at the far corners of the room could yield better results.
Thank you for going out of your way to seek professional advice. Yes, I am aware that subs are omni directional. As I said in my other post... They are omni directional enough to shake my whole house... lol! I will try some different positions but I am limited to what I can do. To the right of that picture I have my PC set-up which also acts as a Home Theater/Media Center PC (DTV recorder, music & video storage etc.).
Once again, thank you for your advice. :-D
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. March 2008 @ 15:36
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hughjars
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8. March 2008 @ 11:32 |
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The new Toshiba Super Upconversion DVD players may well kill off Blu-ray as far as the movie market goes.
It's still SD DVD using regular SD DVD movie discs but (like forensic scientists doing image enhancement) uses, in real time, several movie frames to provide much more detail than 1 frame alone.
The obvious linkage to SD DVD could well be the bit that seals the deal for many people.
No new media discs or new labels or big price tickets to scare the wider mass-market people away with.
The Blu-ray side may well come to regret not going for much low prices much sooner.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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8. March 2008 @ 11:39 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
The new Toshiba Super Upconversion DVD players may well kill off Blu-ray as far as the movie market goes.
It's still SD DVD using regular SD DVD movie discs but (like forensic scientists doing image enhancement) uses, in real time, several movie frames to provide much more detail than 1 frame alone.
The obvious linkage to SD DVD could well be the bit that seals the deal for many people.
No new media discs or new labels or big price tickets to scare the wider mass-market people away with.
The Blu-ray side may well come to regret not going for much low prices much sooner.
For the short run I can see this but after a certain price and saturation point (market,amount of BR films,ect,ect) BR will out pace DVD, I say 3-5 years mainly because sony will dig deep to get things released BR only if they do what they did to DVD sony sow up the home market in 3 but more realistically I can see DVD being like what VHS was 10ish years ago.
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hughjars
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8. March 2008 @ 12:07 |
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I think you're kidding yourself if you seriously imagine Blu-ray will be anywhere even close to the market share of DVD within the next 3 - 5 years Zippy.
....and Sony have shelled out a fortune already.
The whole point about Super Upconversion is that it renders Blu-ray etc etc rather pointless - and all with the existing SD DVD movie discs
(and yes that would have applied to HD DVD too).
It also means no-one has to worry about changing production lines and yields etc etc (which is still very much the weak-point in the BD chain).
If the Super Upconversion players are to be priced at the same level as brand name SD DVD players (or even better if they licence to China fast) why would anyone want pay out so much more for the same
(in fact it works out to being less as Blu-ray introduces several inconveniences by being a differnt format)?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. March 2008 @ 12:10
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juankerr
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8. March 2008 @ 12:25 |
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7 Things Toshiba Won't Tell You About SUC
http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=47406
Quote:
7. All those Online and Interactive features they've been touting for the past 2 years aren't going to be supported with only SUC. Say bye bye to things like seamless menus, BD-J (or HDi), and in-move experience
6. The Price. It appears Toshiba invested nearly a billion dollars into CELL, not to get a piece of the PS3 pie, but for the raw power of CELL to do SUC for them. Toshiba has spent a Billion dollars on just the processor behind SUC, that doesn't include other components, labor, and shipping costs, so just how "cheap" is a SUC player going to be when they hit the market??? I doubt Toshiba is going to be selling these things at hundreds bellow cost, they gotta get back some of that money they wasted on HD DVD.
5. While you have an HD picture, no way you are going to get an HD sound out of a SUC player. Once again Home Theater Enthusists are going to snub these players, that are geared towards them, because of the lack of HD audio.
4. No Blu-ray or HD DVD support. Like I said, these things are geared towards Home Theater Enthusists, many who have already invested in Blu-ray or HD DVD. So all those Blu-rays and HD DVDs you have, won't work on this player.
3. No hard protective coating. Smudges and scratches are much more likely to ruin your software than with Blu-ray.
2. When is it coming out? This Xmas, next summer, next Xmas???? Either way, thats a long time with just watching standard upconverted DVDs and if you invest in blu-ray for the time being, those discs aren't going to work on your Super-Upconvert player.
1. Its 960p....MAX! Imagine a movie that the camera is very still in. This technology needs movement in order to derive the 960p data. If the camera is still or realitvely still and there isn't much change in the video data, your right back to 480p standard upconversion. Or think of a fast moving scene. Think of the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey, when those brilliant colors are flashing. What happens when the 4 previous scenes had a green hue, the middle scene has a red hue, and the upcoming 5 scenes have a yellow hue. what the hell is this thing going to do? It can either block out the other 8 scenes and give you once again only 480p upscaled or it can give you the wrong image. Only in the perfect settings is this thing 960p, other than that the quality is going to be less than 960p and even at the perfect settings the picture is still over 10% less clear than blu-ray disc.
Quote:
The most important thing that Toshiba wont tell you is simply this.
It will NEVER look or sound as good as Blu-ray.
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hughjars
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8. March 2008 @ 12:36 |
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Originally posted by juankerr:
7. All those Online and Interactive features they've been touting for the past 2 years aren't going to be supported with only SUC.
- I thought everyone agreed no-one cares about this stuff?
Originally posted by juankerr:
6. The Price. It appears Toshiba invested nearly a billion dollars into CELL, not to get a piece of the PS3 pie, but for the raw power of CELL to do SUC for them. Toshiba has spent a Billion dollars on just the processor behind SUC, that doesn't include other components, labor, and shipping costs, so just how "cheap" is a SUC player going to be when they hit the market?
- That doesn't do anything but pose a question we won't know the answer to for a while yet.
Why should it be hugely expensive as they imply?
Cell was not bought only for this and it's costs will be shared amongst the other products that will use it.
Originally posted by juankerr:
5. While you have an HD picture, no way you are going to get an HD sound out of a SUC player.
- The mass-market could care less.
Originally posted by juankerr:
4. No Blu-ray or HD DVD support.
- The mass-market could care less.
Originally posted by juankerr:
3. No hard protective coating. Smudges and scratches are much more likely to ruin your software than with Blu-ray.
- The mass-market could care less.
DVD is hardly renouned for being scratch prone......and the coating is a matter of manufacturers choice, it is not something that comes as a part of the Blu-ray spec as an extra it is a necessitity.
There is nothing to stop clued-in disc manufacturers using the coating on all their disc based products
(and if they weren't so greedy they would do that already for us all).
Originally posted by juankerr:
2. When is it coming out? This Xmas, next summer, next Xmas.
- We'll see soon enough.
Either way it'll be long before there is any sign of a genuine mass-market move towards Blu-ray.
Originally posted by juankerr:
1. Its 960p....MAX!
- The mass-market could care less.
Quote:
The most important thing that Toshiba wont tell you is simply this.
It will NEVER look or sound as good as Blu-ray.
- Yeah right.
First of all - according to whom?
The blu-ray.com fanclub?
Secondly if it is a matter of only being slightly down on image quality (and an irrelevant audio quality as far as the mass-market is concerned) but is significantly much cheaper than Blu-ray and all using regular SD DVD discs and without all the DRM sh*te Blu-ray forces on us?
Who cares?
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juankerr
Member
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8. March 2008 @ 12:49 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
- The mass-market could care less.
- The mass-market could care less.
- The mass-market could care less.
Who cares?
The same thing could be said about SUC.
As long as there's upconverters for $50 or less at WalMart then:
...the mass market could care less about SUC.
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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8. March 2008 @ 12:51 |
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How can it be the same? No matter what sort of forensic scientist you claim will live in these Super Dooper up-conversion DVD players...
It's like comparing a 5 megapixel still image with a 2 megapixel image. No matter how good your forensic software is, you could never re-create a 5 megapixel image pixel for pixel from a 2 megapixel image. They will get close, but close doesn't cut it in the High-Def game.
The detail can't be re-created in it's 100% true form from a lower resolution source. It's common sense.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. March 2008 @ 12:52
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hughjars
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8. March 2008 @ 13:09 |
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Originally posted by Ryu77:
How can it be the same? No matter what sort of forensic scientist you claim will live in these Super Dooper up-conversion DVD players...
It's like comparing a 5 megapixel still image with a 2 megapixel image. No matter how good your forensic software is, you could never re-create a 5 megapixel image pixel for pixel from a 2 megapixel image. They will get close, but close doesn't cut it in the High-Def game.
The detail can't be re-created in it's 100% true form from a lower resolution source. It's common sense.
- Well, following your analogy.....
.....it gets very close to being the same (if not quite actually being exactly the same) because the several preceeding and following 2 megapixel frames it selects and uses to scan do not contain the exact same 2 megapixels of information and by extracting and combining those differences a far higher level of genuine detail can be obtained.
That's how a large part of forensic movie image enhancement works and has worked for decades, there's no new magic to it, the new bit is a cheap processor able to do this in real-time in your DVD player.
Ultimately this will all revolve around costs.
We will see soon enough about what those are likely to be.
If this is priced well it could well see Blu-ray confined to being a short-lived & mostly PS3 game console based niche product as the mass-market continues to stick with SD DVD movie discs and enjoys a new level of detail over and above what upscaling gives them now on their HD TVs.
The fact that it uses existing SD DVD movie discs and the fact that no means high def (with perhaps the exception of growing HD TV services) has broken into the real mass-market yet is the clincher IMO.
......but, interestingly, if anything the quote Juankerr provided illustrates just how worried some people are about this new approach to DVD.
Interesting times ahead.
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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8. March 2008 @ 13:28 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
......but, interestingly, if anything the quote Juankerr provided illustrates just how worried some people are about this new approach to DVD.
Why would we be worried?
I am all for advances in technology. I am not so close minded to shut out technology just because I have decided to be be loyal to another brand. Put it this way, if it was the other way around in this recent format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD, and HD-DVD ended up being the format of choice. I would be looking at purchasing a HD-DVD player. I always look for the positive in any given situation. If this SUP device could truly give a picture as good as Blu-ray or HD-DVD... Of course I would want one. I have about 500 regular DVD's too.
It's just common sense that tells me that higher resolution video, higher bitrates, more efficient codecs and uncompressed/lossless sound equals a far better home theater experience.
I don't mean to sound rude hughjars but sometimes I just don't get you. You seem to be an AV enthusiast but yet you are promoting a device with technology that is sub standard to Blu-ray or HD-DVD. What's this all about? Don't you want the absolute best?... I know I do.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. March 2008 @ 13:29
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hughjars
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8. March 2008 @ 14:36 |
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Originally posted by Ryu77:
Why would we be worried?
- I didn't mean you (or anyone else here) personally.
I didn't look but I do expect that little list Juankerr gave came from a Blu-ray fan or fanclub site.
Originally posted by Ryu77:
It's just common sense that tells me that higher resolution video, higher bitrates, more efficient codecs and uncompressed/lossless sound equals a far better home theater experience.
- Well in simplistic terms I'd agree.
But it's not just about absolute judgements and there are wider concerns.
Blu-ray's DRM issues leave me utterly cold and I just won't accept it at any price.
I'm also highly sceptical about Blu-ray production limitations and costs equating to 'the best' in the longer term either.
I expect to see a lot of cheaper 25gb issues as people now forget about having to compete with HD DVD.
Originally posted by Ryu77:
I don't mean to sound rude hughjars but sometimes I just don't get you. You seem to be an AV enthusiast but yet you are promoting a device with technology that is sub standard to Blu-ray or HD-DVD.
- No.
I'm not "promoting" anything.
I do think that Super Upconversion could be the obvious & practical means of taking high def to the masses at a genuinely cost-effective level that sees some form of high def finally take off.
Because of the issues with Blu-ray I'd really rather that Blu-ray was not the format to do that and I'm more than happy to look for that anywhere other than Blu-ray.
But I really don't see this method as being a weird or hopeless contender, the hook-up with everyone's SD DVD collection is very very interesting & a very obvious lure to every SD DVD owner out there.
Originally posted by Ryu77:
What's this all about? Don't you want the absolute best?... I know I do.
- I don't, not at any price & if it comes with all the potential horrors Blu-ray incorporates.
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juankerr
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8. March 2008 @ 15:46 |
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For the true AV enthusiast, upconversion - super or otherwise - is nothing but a stopgap measure and a temporary solution until they release your favorite catalog title in full 1080p. For major new releases there is just no acceptable solution but to get the high def version.
Quote:
I didn't look but I do expect that little list Juankerr gave came from a Blu-ray fan or fanclub site.
Try highdef digest.
http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=47406
BTW, Ryu77 - that's a nice home theater setup you have there.
http://i.my.afterdawn.com/original/16117.JPG
You must have spent a small fortune on it. I don't blame you for wanting only the best media to play on it. You simply don't put regular unleaded in your Lexus.
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hughjars
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8. March 2008 @ 16:08 |
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stockstar1138
60GB PS3
Blu-ray games - 8
Blu-ray movies - 56
Like I said, a bit of a Blu-ray fan (and I wonder where he pinched it from, Blu-ray.com?)
Like it or not Super Upconversion is a means of extracting genuine additional detail from the SD DVD source.
It might well be the real 'winner' in all of this.
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juankerr
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8. March 2008 @ 16:35 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
genuine additional detail from the SD DVD source.
"genuine additional detail"
Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.
Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.
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