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Neph's POLITE Gun Debate
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Moderator
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4. April 2006 @ 10:35 |
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In order to keep my other thread fun and happy we'll carry on any sort of debate in this one. It's an important issue that many feel strongly about.
Let's keep this intelligent and polite folks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and view on things so personal attacks will not be tolerated. If you can't argue intelligently then don't argue at all!
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2006 @ 23:28
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jazo123
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4. April 2006 @ 17:19 |
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He said "antigun" not antique gun, lol
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The_OGS
Senior Member
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4. April 2006 @ 17:32 |
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Gun's just a tool, I've got nothing against guns. I've done some target shooting, it's great.
But I'm quite happy to live in Canada, where all rifles and shotguns are registered (like a car, same deal) and of course handguns are illegal.
Do you know, my government has managed to spend ~$1 billion dollars registering guns? >rolling eyes< Outrageous ineptitude, LoL :^)
But I still think it's a good idea... apparently the national gun database gets ~5000 hits/day, from working cops alone.
All the guns come up from USA though; it's a real problem.
We get 'em back though with B.C. Bud ;^)
L8R
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. April 2006 @ 17:34
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jazo123
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4. April 2006 @ 17:33 |
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LOL i never knew that
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. April 2006 @ 17:35 |
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@catfreak
LMFAO-so funny I'm with you I like antique guns. A third thread needs to be started
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jazo123
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4. April 2006 @ 17:36 |
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It's up to you to start it, garmoon, lol
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. April 2006 @ 17:43 |
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Quote:
All the guns come up from USA though; it's a real problem.
... Para-Ordinance is an extremely large pistol manufacturer located in Canada ... I also have a 9mm Browning pistol that was made in Montreal back in 2001 ...
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Buik
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4. April 2006 @ 17:54 |
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Catfreak,
can you at least add an antique M203 to that baby? Ya know, bring it up closer to Space Marine standards in the "Alien" episodes?
TC
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. April 2006 @ 18:15 |
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Quote:
He said "antigun" not antique gun, lol
must be that southwestern accent that Nephilim has ...
Quote:
can you at least add an antique M203 to that baby? Ya know, bring it up closer to Space Marine standards in the "Alien" episodes?
sorry. but I'm not into grenades ...
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jazo123
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4. April 2006 @ 18:22 |
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Quote:
must be that southwestern accent that Nephilim has ...
LMAO catfreak
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Moderator
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5. April 2006 @ 13:18 |
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Neph, I don't think you have to justify opening a seperate thread for the whingers. Guns don't kill people, idiots who abuse them do -- same goes for plastic bags..
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gerry1
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6. April 2006 @ 05:18 |
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Ah well, what the hell. I've got to disagree with Lethal (I think this is a first Lethal LOL!) But I haven't been ganged-up on in ages so I'll give it a whirl. You see, I come from Philadelphia...we have the dubious honor of having more handgun murders than anywhere else in our second amendment loving country. Ironically, that amendment was written not two blocks from where I'm typing these words because the Brits had forbidden firearms (wisely so under the circumstances, I suspect). I disagree with Lethal because most of the guns seized on the streets of this rather dangerous city were stolen from people who bought them legitimately. The real irony is that I have, myself, considered getting a handgun many times as many of my friends have. Philly is a seriously crime ridden city...tons of firearms everywhere. It is so bad that many people, many my friends, walk around armed for the sake of protection from the bad guys with fire arms....a veritable wild west right here in the founding city of our great US. It is ironic that so many of us who are PRO gun control walk about armed for lack of alternative.
I work in a govt office building; the city office for gun licenses is upstairs...when I stand in the front having a smoke, I must get asked a dozen time a day for that particular office...hell, in this city, they'll give a damn gun to anyone! A couple of years ago, the FBI stormed the building in this sting operation...the gun licensing dept had been caught selling licenses to folks with criminal histories. Just can't win, I guess.
Anyway, I disagree with Lethal because, in Philadelphia anyway, the majority of guns on the street were once the property of the, so called, "responsible" gun owner.
I thought, just for the hell of it, that I'd add another tid-bit of irony; when I was a kid, I had a "spudgun" that used real potatos; they're illegal now because they caused injury LOL!! They were deemed weapons of mashed destruction.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2006 @ 05:24
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Moderator
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6. April 2006 @ 09:07 |
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gerry, hey buddy.
I respect your point of view, as you live in an area where gun-crime activity is rife, & am not being ignorant towards the dangers of firearm abuse, but that's what it is -- abuse.
Quote:
"I disagree with Lethal because most of the guns seized on the streets of this rather dangerous city were stolen from people who bought them legitimately"
Aye, but the people stealing them are the main problem, not the guns themselves. Guns are fine if used legitimately. Hence the reason I don't feel discussing them should warrant an outburst from the anti-gun brigade.
Then again, gun crime is virtually non-existent in my area, so I can see how our different backgrounds influence our opinions. ;-)
Take care gerry.
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aabbccdd
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6. April 2006 @ 09:58 |
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gerry i assume your against the right to bear arms? and whats your anwser to ban all guns? and do you think if we ban all guns the bad guys are just going to turn them in?lol.
its a fact that the states with the strictest guns laws have the highest crime rate and vice verse the states with the least amount of gun laws have the lowest
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gerry1
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6. April 2006 @ 10:07 |
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@lethal...Oh, my opinion (even for me) isn't written in stone but, I suppose, is more of a statement of frustration. It's rather like the ol' abortion fight, or Bush's spying thing, you know, an issue where there are valid and sound arguements to be made on both sides of the issue. I'm an ex marine, I use to love target shooting (and really wasn't bad) etc. When I lived in new england where crime wasn't a problem, I felt as you do. When I moved to Philly, the "reality" of my enviornment changed dramatically so I guess my opinions changed in kind. So too, because of my job (I'm a social worker) I'm constantly barraged with gun crimes of all sorts...robberies, rapes, drive by shooting, drug related hits...all sorts. I've been exposed to this stuff daily for the last 14 years so I'm apt to rather opinionated on the subject LOL! Admittedly, I vacillate...I know many guys with weapons for self protection and have considered it myself; but then I'll be having a smoke in the front of the building and this guy comes up stoned out of his head and with tons of attitude and asks where the office is for gun permits ... I squirm at the thought of this guy having a weapon. Part of me says I should have a weapon like my friends just to protect myself while another part of me says no one should have one. How's that for a truly nut-case answer LOL! ... Gerry
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2006 @ 10:51
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gerry1
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6. April 2006 @ 10:46 |
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@Ireland....have no fear, my friend, there's no flamin' in the makin' (nor have I ever heard of soap wrestling but it sounds intriguing!)
@aabbccdd: see my response to Lethal LOL! I'm admittedly and amazingly schitzoid on the issue!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2006 @ 10:54
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aabbccdd
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6. April 2006 @ 10:54 |
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right on gerry at least your honest about it ,i guess in a perfect world we would not need guns ,other than heaven being perfect but thats not possible here on earth
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. April 2006 @ 14:10 |
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@aabbccdd
I'm with you on the right to bear arms.I have em but I haven't used them lately. I inherited most but I did grow up shooting 22s at watermoccasins and tin cans. But as for states with the laxest gun laws having least amount of crime; one definite exception is here in Louisiana. ANYONE and EVERYONE has guns, most unregistered. We have a high crime rate. Texas is even worse. I feel anyone who wants to own a weapon should be able. But should be responsible enough to use it properly. And I'm not trying cause any arguments. Since I like guns I will have to go to the "I Love Guns" thread and lurk in here.
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Buik
Member
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6. April 2006 @ 16:47 |
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An "Armed Society" is a "Polite Society". Especially when it comes to concealed carry permits. Ya never know (if you are a perp) if you might be out gunned.
TC
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Moderator
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6. April 2006 @ 23:23 |
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[Since this has turned into somewhat of a debate I'll reword the thread title and my thoughts in my first post to reflect the direction this thrread is going.]
Statistically the cities with the most stringent guns laws also have some of the highest gun murders. DC is a great example - it's practically illegal to own a handgun there yet they also place in the top five for the most gun muders in the US every year. If banning guns works then how does one explain DC?
Buik, you hit the nail on the head my friend.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. April 2006 @ 23:24
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aabbccdd
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6. April 2006 @ 23:36 |
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mass. is another example also ,strict gun laws and high crime rate. it just doesnt work folks
and Buik i have my "concealed carry permit" right in my back pocket sir lol
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gerry1
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7. April 2006 @ 05:27 |
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Just a few observations:
@Buik: Philadelphia is armed to the teeth and, as mentioned earlier, we are the #1 city in the country for handgun murders. If an armed society is a polite society, we seem to be the exception to the rule ... we've also been given the honor of being the most unfriendly city in the US.
@aabbccdd & neph: Naturally gun laws are going to be ineffective when you drive into the next county or state and buy the aresenal of your fantasies! When I have an expensive purchase to make, I go a half hour down the road to delaware to avoid sales taxes...why should guns be any different? How can gun control in DC work when you can go twenty min in any direction to buy (or steal) weapons to your heart's content? I don't know about DC but Philly will give a license to anyone...hell, if you've got a criminal record, just grease the right palm LOL!
ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE: I was born in Rhode Island but raised in Quebec. Don't let anyone tell you they don't have guns in Canada! If memory serves, statistics are that, per capita, canadian citizens are better armed that americans...but they don't have the gun problems we have ... not even in their big cities; why is that? Perhaps because Canada doesn't have anything close to the social/societal problems that the US has? Having had a foot in both countries I can say one thing with certainty: canada addresses its social problems (albeit clumsily) while the US ignores them completely and then gripes when they've let it get out of hand. This is not the change of subject that it appears; I think it shows, in a way at least, that the handgun probem is, as Lethal says, not caused by the existance of the handgun but rather the society (be it a functional or dysfunctioal one) which wields them. (Another schitzo response, true enough!)
I should post a sidelong pic of my building and the one across the street. In my bldg, you get your license and directly across the street is a gun store that spans for store fronts...sort of comical in an odd sort of way. In the window is a neon sign about shotguns, rifles, handguns, ammo...and they've got pictures of Moose, deer etc. etc....rather ironc; most philadelphia residents wouldn't have a clue what a Moose lookes like...hell, they don't even know the difference between a sheep and a poodle LOL!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. April 2006 @ 06:00
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Moderator
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7. April 2006 @ 10:14 |
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Nice post Gerry, you made some great observations. I obviously agree with you that gun laws can be ineffective but for some differing reasons. It boils down to the fact that gun laws that restrict sale or owernship only punish law abiding folks who enjoy them for sport and self defense. Criminals by definition don't give a hoot about laws so what's a new law going to mean to them?
Taking guns away from those that use them responsibly is akin to taking away everyones car because of all the drunk drivers killing people. Drunk drivers kill as many if not more people every year than guns so by following the same mentality for banning guns we should be making serious attempts to ban cars and booze but we don't.
There's also the fact that it is guaranteed in the Constitution no matter how some folks try to interperet it. The founding fathers felt so strongly about it that they made it #2! Removing an Amendments from the Bill of Rights is an unthinkable act that will set a bad precedent - if they can get rid of one they can get rid of the rest. The minute we allow the government to dice up the Bill of Rights we as Amercans should be ashamed of ourselves for giving up something so sacred.
Another reason banning won't work is that there are already millions of guns in our country making it hard to round up even half of them (Canada and Australia are proof). Smugling will keep plenty of guns here too. I live in Phoenix so I can attest to the fact that anything and everything there's a demand for will come across the border in huge quantities. There are and always have been thousands of illegal guns coming across from Mexico. Supply and demand doesn't stop for laws.
Blaming guns for crime is a ridiculously simplistic view that will never solve the true problem. To solve the problem we need to start focusing on the person behind the gun. Guns cause crime like alcohol causes drunk drivers. Guns and booze are merely an object in a bigger, very complicated problem. When has banning anything truly solved the problem it was supposed to? Prohibition was a flop that created a lot of very rich criminals and banning drugs hasn't kept them off the street.
Another point is there are thousands of folks each year who defend themselves and deter crime because they're armed. Should they be left defenseless to the crime that banning guns is supposed to stop?
Guess that's it for now :P
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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7. April 2006 @ 10:39 |
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When you make it a criminal offense to own a gun ... only criminals will have guns ...
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Prohibition was a flop that created a lot of very rich criminals and banning drugs hasn't kept them off the street.
.. you are so right neph .. again banning something has only created a bunch of rich criminals
DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. April 2006 @ 12:08 |
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Gun crime in the UK has gone through the roof since new laws were introduced a few years back. This was a knee jerk reaction to a tragedy. As most of these laws are rushed through parliament, they rarely make sense.
I would love to have guns.
Not just to kill a**holes either!
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