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Neph's POLITE Gun Debate
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 12:30 |
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The Second Amendment, as passed by the House and Senate and later ratified by the States, reads:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights which hangs in the National Archives had slightly different capitalization and punctuation inserted by William Lambert, the scribe who prepared it. This copy reads:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."'
Both versions are commonly used by "official" Government publications.
[edit]
Origin of the Second Amendment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_State...
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aabbccdd
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8. April 2006 @ 13:24 |
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Nephilim, you ,i ,anyone shall never be rendered defenseless to criminals we cant and must not allow that to every happen, good reason the join the NRA folks iam renewing now!!!
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Buik
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8. April 2006 @ 13:25 |
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Well, well, well. We do seem to have yawed from the original intent. However, still on-track, so to speak.
Bravo to Neph & Ireland on your last posts. They were very well put.
The US second amendment had at least two purposes. Foremost was that we not be subjugated to the total control by our government. Simply because we would have the means to oppose them. Second, was that we have , and are allowed to have, some responsibility for the protection of our lives and property. After all, "total reliance" on our "public servants" to ensure that we can pursue "Life, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness" is a utopian myth.
Regardless of our religous beliefs, we are still mammals. A part of the animal world. We all still need the skills & tools necessary to survive in our current environment. Otherwise, we perish. Look back on human history. Look back at how we evolved. Those with the better tools reigned. Do not let the governing bodies relegate us to the status of the ELOI.
TC
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gerry1
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8. April 2006 @ 14:23 |
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@Neph....you know, I'm rather glad you started this thread. While it isn't politics, its still a volitile subject to some yet its been quite objectively discussed.
I certainly respect all that you had to say, and while I question some of it, it's certainly all very logical. I particularly agree with your assessment of the checks and balances which is really the hallmark or our system of government over any others'...that has distressed me more than I can say; it took a severe blow before bush was ever sworn in for the first term and has gone dramatically downhill since. Some of the founding fathers are buried two blocks from here and they must have turned in their graves a number of times!
As a theology major (which has gotten me really far in life LOL!), I am rather proned to Ps and Qs and can find no flaw in your words; yet, at the risk of sounding overly ontological, the reality of having left the marine corps unscathed while coming close to pushing daisies on the streets of my own home town has the immeasurable power of throwing logic right out the window! Hence, my vasillation on the subject! This sure is interesting though, don't you think?
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 14:26 |
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@gerry1
No problem. I sent you a PM about the M16 and 45s. Gotta go Wife's BD party later all. This is a good thread.
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Moderator
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8. April 2006 @ 16:01 |
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Quote:
This sure is interesting though, don't you think?
I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I think it's a wonderful thing when differing opinions can be discussed without resorting to anger or name calling as we see happen so often.
I also wholeheartedly agree that the Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves.
Your point about coming closer to death on the streets of your hometown than the Marines is a very sobering one!
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
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"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 |
AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 17:42 |
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Hi Neph, you pulled be out of the bushes with this topic.
Being ex-military from the Viet-Nam days, I've fired just about every thing they had back then from the 45 hand gun to the big 8 inch self-propelled artillary I was in command of for a year. I have had a carry permit since I was discharged in 1971. I trained my wife with several hand guns and she also carries a SW 38 special and could shoot a persons knee caps out faster than me if needed. My daughter now 24 was taught everything possible about my guns starting around 12 and would also have a permit if she still lived here in Pennsylvania. I am on several rosters as emergency backup with both local and county police.
I believe 100% in the right to keep and bear arms and also am a firm believer that if this right is ever taken away, the criminals will still have all their guns and it will in no way help cut back the crime rate in any way. Pennsylvania has a liberal gun policy and because of that the BAD GUYS here always need to think twice about any crime they commit. They never know when they will be out gunned by the lady walking down the street. It may not be the ideal situation but it works for me. I carry a Walther PPKS 380 in the summer and a Smith & Wesson 9mm in the winter. In 35 years I've only pulled it 1 time as backup for one of our local officers in need of a little help. So I don't consider myself one of the crazy gun nuts. Its there if needed.
The only thing I feel needs to be improved in this state is a mandatory instruction course in the use, care and proper operation before a gun purchase can be completed. Too many people hurt themselves cleaning that gun that ISN'T LOADED.
Anyway its refreshing to see a normal, calm debate with both sides respecting the others opinion for a change.
Jerry
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aabbccdd
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8. April 2006 @ 20:01 |
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there are very few people on either side that thinks all guns should be banned. that will never fly with the American public
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Buik
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8. April 2006 @ 20:46 |
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Does anyone remember the scene from "Red Dawn" where the commander tells the subordinate to go to the Court House and get all the gun registration documents?
That was a powerful movie.
Guns are not evil. They are nothing more than a tool. A more efficient tool than a rock.
TC
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2006 @ 00:07 |
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We are losing an awful lot of liberties in the name of terrorism, the ability to use free speech or hold demonstrations. I think this a very poor excuse, in my mind the terrrorists have already won. We live in a climate of fear, perpetuated by parliament & the media has to bear some responsibility.
What really annoys me, if you question policies, you are labelled a terrorist. The police want to hold people without charge for up to 90 days & without knowing why you are being held. One of the fundametal principals in our society is that you are innocent until proven guilty. That is slowly been turned around to where you have to prove your innocence. This changes the relationship between the state & the people. The people are becoming the enemy.
We live in frightening times, but the only thing I am really scared of is our government & rushed legislation.
Gif by Phantom69
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aabbccdd
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9. April 2006 @ 00:18 |
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hummm i dont think the terrrorists have won not unless we cave into to them and give up ,the USA isnt going to let that happen not unless some of the liberals have there way and BTW were off subject and we know where this will head as it has before and i dont want to go there
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gerry1
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9. April 2006 @ 05:32 |
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@pulsar...I agree with aabbccdd on that (or for the most part). Terrorist haven't won by a long shot; not here in the US or in the UK either. I certainly agree with you on the impact on rights though. Neph was referring to this earlier with the US system of checks and balances. I watched with some facination as your political system fought back and forth between a 60 - 90 day detainment without charges; at least you're not locking people up and throwing away the key!
@aabbccdd: I'm not faulting the attenpts at making airlines safer, the ports & cargo problems that exists etc. but neither liberal nor consevative will be able to keep terrorists from coming in if they wish. Never. You've seen all the mayhem over the mexican US border lately ...mostly an immigration issue with a little terrorism security thrown into the mix (I side with the arch-conservatives on that one but for economic, not sercurity reasons). We can't control the US mexican border which is nothing compared to the north. The US Canadian border is the largest undefended border in the world and is thousands of miles long and much of it forestry. Putting higher security at entry points on highways is nothing but "theater". With nooks and crannies, it's over 5,000 miles long. The mexican border pales in that comparison and we can't even control that. If they can make their way to mexico and particularly Canada, there isn't a damn thing thing we can do short of building a new 5000 mile long wall of china and post the entire US military on the top to guard it. Anybody can cross the US Canadian border and not get caught...hell, nobody's even looking...but they can't look; it isn't possible. I guess my point is that, however great their efforts, there are some things which neither liberal or conservative can do anything about and they readily admit it ... though they try not to talk about it much.
You're also right about this being the wrong subject for the thread but, albeit obstinently, I wanted to get my two cents in.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2006 @ 07:03
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gerry1
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9. April 2006 @ 09:47 |
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O.K. guys, I've made a firm decision on this subject. I just discovered I have a basement full of friggin alley cats! Don't suppose you have a hand grenade somewhere you can spare LOL!
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2006 @ 09:58 |
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gerry1
pull pin with teeth and hold in right hand,and think should i throw it,if i do,can i get it back?????????????
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aabbccdd
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9. April 2006 @ 10:08 |
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now thats funny ireland !!!!!! LMAO !!!!
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gerry1
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9. April 2006 @ 10:20 |
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Thanks Ireland! LOL...Just what I need!
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Senior Member
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9. April 2006 @ 10:22 |
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Gerry,
Cats love 12 gauge shotguns. #6 shot, 1-1/2 oz loads, cylinder bore choke should do fine. remember to wear eye and ear protection though, shooting in confined spaces is not a good idea. An Air Force buddy of mine had to get rid of 45 cats from his Dad's ranch in Az a few years back. He says that cats get really smart when they start dying.
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gerry1
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9. April 2006 @ 10:37 |
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@Blivet...I'll have to get one! These are no domesticated kitties but combat hardened vetrans! Along with the shotgun, I'll try to find a medieval suit of armour!
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2006 @ 11:24 |
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@ireland
What would we do without your pix. 1.5 sec delay on grenade. That's a short fuse.Keep em coming. LMAO
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The_OGS
Senior Member
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11. April 2006 @ 09:51 |
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I am always puzzled by the American attitude that they are the 'centre of the universe' evident in posts from gerry1 and aabbccdd - no offense, you probably don't even realize, LoL
I very much agree with Pulsar, and feel you are not getting the gist of his suggestions...
The 'victories' he speaks of are subtle, and have to do with crippling the carefree freedoms we have traditionally assumed were our birthrights in the Western world.
The terrorists have crippled airports, international borders and travel, and set suspicion and mistrust into everyone's minds...
Even if nothing more occurs, the CDN/US border ($1 billion/day) is heavily messed-up, and all flights and airports everywhere are a nightmare.
So when you say 'they have not won' you're taking it too literally - the small victories and defeats are ongoing and insidious, and have changed one of the great countries in the world for the worse.
Clinton and Jimmy Carter say they are almost 'ashamed to be Americans' these days, and they are not alone...
What about the voices of these people and others who agree (although we know you do not like to listen aabbccdd)
The defeat of the West will not come at the point of a gun...
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. April 2006 @ 10:37
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AfterDawn Addict
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11. April 2006 @ 13:04 |
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Thanks OGS, the changes we are seeing are very subtle, oppressive & devisive. Our freedoms are slowly being eroded. We have recently had legislation for ID cards in this country. There is an immensely peurile arguement which goes "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", this is beyond contempt & is way too simplistic. I have nothing to hide, but I have nothing to show either.
For too long now the British public has been made fools of by successive governments, we are told all these things are for our own good, we now live in a nanny state which is obsessed with knowing our every move, telephone call, E-mail etc. We have 25% of all the CCTV cameras in Europe. They now want us to carry ID cards, facial recognition only works 40% of the time, the technology is not living up to expectation. I feel that we are just following Americas' lead, this galls me, why can we not think for ourselves? (I do not wish to create an arguement over this either!)
They want all our details kept on computers. Who has access? Year by year different agencies will gain access to our personal info, until nearly anyone will have access. Our government has an appalling record in computer projects, the costs will spiral out of control (but we will be told it is for the greater good), then there will always be the risk of information manipulation, how will you prove what is right or wrong? What about hacking?
There are way too many potential disasters waiting to happen, but the government will not listen, they never do or will............
I wish I could defend myself, my family, my friends & my property without fear of prosecution, preferably with a large f**k off gun. Like Neph says, why should I not be able to defend myself?
The terrorists have won, because we now do as our respective governments tell us to, we live in a climate of fear & paranoia. Our laws are being changed, but the only ones affected are the honest people.
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 11. April 2006 @ 13:08
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gerry1
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11. April 2006 @ 13:44 |
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@pulsar...you would get no arguement from me over what you said. The more the UK follows our lead...the greater your peril. But, like the pope said (the one and only time I've agreed with the pope), 9/11 was just totally wrong but it won't stop if the foreign policy since 1945 doesn't stop. So what do we do....we increase the same foreign policy. Even without following the US lead, the Brits are not in the best of graces either because Palestine, which started all this, was part of the empire before removing its inhabitants to create another state. "Won" has a sense of finality...things are going to get worse as we've intensified intrusive polices. We've got no business where we're not wanted....who better than the Brits would know the inevitable consequence of that? It's like we never learn anything but keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 11. April 2006 @ 13:58
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11. April 2006 @ 13:48 |
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Our founding fathers summed up the way I feel about gun control and giving up our rights for protection against terror, so called Un-Patriot act.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Ben Franklin.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. -- in "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, Thomas Jefferson quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764
God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure., November 13, 1787, letter to William Stephens Smith, quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy
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11. April 2006 @ 14:50 |
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Like I said before, some of the most brilliant and forward thinking men to ever walk the planet.
Ben Franklin's quote seems like he saw the UnPatriot Act coming 200 some odd years later and was talking about it specifically.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 11. April 2006 @ 14:50
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AfterDawn Addict
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11. April 2006 @ 21:16 |
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That quote is uncannily eerie to say the least. I guess he knew the minds of people better than most.
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