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Neph's POLITE Gun Debate
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. April 2006 @ 14:38 |
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I cannot believe it: Pulsar and aabbccdd are on the same page. Peace in the valley. J/K guys
This happened here 2 weeks ago in BR La. A white cop pulls a black guy in nice car over for interrupting funeral procession. The two have words and before long the black guy is trying to kill the cop with the cop's gun. He manages to shoot the cop in the stomach and the fight continues til a white bystander comes out of a store and sees what's happening. He's armed(legal permit to carry) and tells the black guy to get off the cop and put the gun down, fight continues and bystander shoots the black guy and on the four attempt shoots him in the head, he hadn't missed the other 3 times but the guy wouldn't stop. Kills the black guy, the white cop survives and thanks the the bystander. So now we have another race issue to deal with. Grand jury will hear case. The bystander saves the cops life and now will have to go thru all the sh*t that will come. To half the town he's a hero but to the other half he's a racist. Be careful how you use that concealed weapon.
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. April 2006 @ 14:59 |
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No matter what you do in life, half the people will think you did the right thing while the other half will condemn you ...
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Buik
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7. April 2006 @ 18:25 |
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If everyone in Philly is armed to the teeth, then it must be only the criminals who have guns. I'm sure it is onerus for the average person to get a permit to even own a pistol, let alone get a concealed carry permit.
As for Canada, I seem to remember, a few years back, that while shootings decreased after the outlawing of handguns, what shootings they had were more lethal because long arms were used.
Elimiate all fire arms and humans to resort to older weapons. Like spears, knives, cudgeons, swords, branches & "oh no" stones. After all, we are at the top of the food chain because we are tool makers/users. The attitude of vilify the tool but spare the tool user....? Plows are tools. Remeber the old adage, "Those who beat their swords into plowshares will soon work for those who don't".
Elimination of any kind of weapon for offensive/defensive means makes no sense. Tell a Grizzly Bear you are a peace loving creature, while it mauls you, & see how far it gets you.
A firearm is a tool, like any other. It can be used, misused, abused & so on.
Eh, even if I had to revert back to wearing a loincloth (or an animal pelt), I could still find a stone.
TC
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7. April 2006 @ 20:40 |
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Quote:
I'm sure it is onerus for the average person to get a permit to even own a pistol, let alone get a concealed carry permit.
It was extremely onerous if not overwhelming trying to get a concealed carry permit in California .. But I live in Indiana now and it was the proverbial 'piece of cake' ... background check for felony convictions and the permit fee .. In Indiana the Constitution states that you have the right to carry arms ...
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Moderator
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7. April 2006 @ 21:19 |
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Quote:
Gun crime in the UK has gone through the roof since new laws were introduced a few years back
I recall reading something to same effect happened in Australia. The bad guys love knowing with certainty that their victims are unarmed :)
I also recall reading that in the months after Florida started allowing concealed carry the crime rates dropped measurably. Hmmmmmmm.......
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 |
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aabbccdd
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7. April 2006 @ 21:29 |
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just let em try and come in to take my guns lol aint gonna happen
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7. April 2006 @ 21:58 |
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@ aabbccdd .. if you aren't a NRA member .. you need to join .. they have a bunch of politician's ears .. besides, if you shoot a lot, members have accidental shooting insurance ...
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. April 2006 @ 22:14 |
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In the UK, if someone breaks into your house & you sneak up behind them & hit them over the head with a frying pan or baseball bat, you WILL be arrested & probably end up in court on assault charges. Also the burglar will probably sue you for using excessive force & damages. The police can take your fingerprints DNA etc, even if you are not charged with anything. The police can stop & search (for no reason) anyone they wish.
The likelihood of you being found guilty is farily minimal, but you still have to go through the court system, which can be quite traumatic to say the least.
Over here you are not allowed to protect yourself, your family or your property. Plain & simple. Even if you are run over by someone who steals your car & they are caught, the perps will only get a couple of years at most in jail.
It is really f**ked up in the UK, the laws are designed to protect the defendant & screw up the victims. The government resists at all times, calls for the laws to be amended.
Persistent burglars, car thieves etc, rarely get sent to jail. They are not allowed to be humiliated for their crimes (it is against their human rights) i.e. having to wear an orange jump suit whilst they conduct their community service orders.
In school, teachers cannot discipline the children. The teachers get sworn at, attacked, raped, assaulted on a regular basis. The children are completely out of control. Our record for teenage pregnancies is sky high, alcohol abuse amongst teenagers is rife. On the other side, a child was prosecuted for throwing a snowball at a car!
We have taken political correctness to a new extreme. One of the police forces do not consider burglary, theft, car theft a serious crime, but if you call someone gay, or black, you will be arrested.
A student was actually charged with calling a police horse gay! That is absolutely true....There was a big furore about it.
I hate the police, I hate politicians. They have absolutely no respect from most of the UK population. They pursue the most petty of crimes & leave the most important alone. An 80 year old man (he was an ex holocaust victim) was arrested under the terrorism act for shouting "rubbish" to a politician at the Labour party conference last summer. The government tried to gloss over it, but it was embarassing. We were told that the new act would be used rarely. That proved to be a complete fallacy.
It is indeed infuriating.
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aabbccdd
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7. April 2006 @ 22:22 |
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catfreak, right on i am a member(NRA) but i think my membership expired i need to check lol
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. April 2006 @ 22:28 |
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Quote:
I hate the police, I hate politicians. They have absolutely no respect from most of the UK population. . . . .It is really f**ked up in the UK, the laws are designed to protect the defendant & screw up the victims. The government resists at all times, calls for the laws to be amended. . . . .Over here you are not allowed to protect yourself, your family or your property. Plain & simple.
... F'in liberal European politicans .. no wonder my relatives came to the USofA ...
DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you dont know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate . . .
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aabbccdd
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7. April 2006 @ 22:57 |
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hehehehe catfreak , i was going to type that BUT i would be in alot of trouble doing so lol you couldnt of said it better, BUT lets NOT get into a politics please guys
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 04:47 |
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@aabbccdd
Just after hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans, police and national guard units began confiscating fire arms from private citizens who were still in their unflooded homes protecting their property from looters. One man threatened to shot them (police) if the came into his house. Don't recall what hapened to him. The looters kept their guns because there were insufficient troops on the ground.
So there is now a precedent of taking legally owned firearms. The NRA is down here to fight this and trying to get the guns back since they seemed to have disappeared mysteriously.
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gerry1
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8. April 2006 @ 05:41 |
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@Buik....it is very easy to get permits here; they'll give one to anybody.
As I mentioned in other posts, I am ambivalent on the issue...I DO understand your points and agreed with you whole heartedly until I got my present job in Philly and saw first hand what was happening; part of my agrees with you yet part of me screams that thousands of innocent people are dying for this supposed right to bear arms...I was nearly one of them on three occasions. Still, as is our way in the U.S., we ignore every single problem until it's out of hand and too late. (Like New Orleans: we knew that was inevitable for decades and did nothing until it happened, then everyone blames everyone else). We're like that in everything. So, in that sense, I guess you guys are right...it's gotten so out of hand that its too late.
Regarding the founding fathers: naturally, it was important to them. The brits had outlawed firearms for decades...they knew what was coming I suspect. In the earlier days of the revolution, our armies fought with farm implements until the frenchies saw a perfect opportunity for a little further a$$ kicking in a back and forth mayhem they shared with the Brits for some fifteen hundred years! So far as I know, we don't have any armies to arm in the present day.
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 07:13 |
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If anything the politics is more right wing, not liberal! We are no where near liberal, more conservative. What with the obsession to control people & their actions.
Our politics are getting more & more right wing as each term of each government progresses.
But, as reasoned & learned discussion about politics is impossible here, I will stop now.
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gerry1
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8. April 2006 @ 07:55 |
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@pulsar...I'm curious to know your take on things though. It seems that the UK, Canada and other countries' definition of "conservative" and ours in the US are vastly different. It seems the UK and Canada's definition of the term are actually left of the american centrist. Not long ago, the last prime minister of canada lamented, "The whole world is going in one direction while the united states goes the opposite." It's not my intention to start a political discussion but I do ask one question out of curiosity: are there any religious groups in the UK so politically powerful that they could literally change the landscape of british law to mirror their beliefs and force their beliefs on the general public? Again, I'm not looking for a political discussion, I'm just curious to know if such groups exist in the UK as they do here in the US? ...also, I'm talking about politically powerful and influential groups...not the small handfuls here and there.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. April 2006 @ 08:15
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Moderator
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8. April 2006 @ 08:19 |
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That's a truly sad state of affairs pulsar. Come visit Arizona sometime - you may like it :)
Quote:
So far as I know, we don't have any armies to arm in the present day.
Are you referring to the purpose of the Second Amendment? I just want to be clear before I comment (I do that once in a while :P).
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 08:40 |
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1984 and Big Brother are here in the USA and growing. Each year more rights have been removed, if not for the Bill of Rights, free speech and gun ownership would have been curtailed to where only the bad guys have them!
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gerry1
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8. April 2006 @ 10:35 |
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Ahh-Ohh...Methinks I'm about to get it from both sides LOL!..what the hell, just don't be mean to me; I cry easily LOL!
@garmoon...I'm not altogether sure how gun ownership fits into your analogy, but I agree with that for the most part...but I don't understand how gun ownership, free press & speech certainly, but how does gun ownership aid in the stopping of the technological degeneration of rights?
@Neph...yes, that is what I was referring to though in more modern terms I suppose. Farmer militias was the european way since before recorded history...I belive a few rare poems of the spartans were the first historical reference to it but that is essentially what I meant. As a british colony, that ages old but very effective concept or force or even tradition, if you will, was the first thing to get trashed due to the enormity of its efficiency. "Army" is perhaps the wrong word but essentially what I meant; I suppose the concept of the "reserves" would have been more appropriate. I don't suppose there is much call for farmer militias these days... nor do I feel that present day groups that call themselves "militia",(and there are many of them here in PA,) are what they proclaim themselves to be.
OK ...HERE IT COMES LOL!
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 10:38 |
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We have had the age old Catholic vs Protestant feuds for many centuries, the last 50-60yrs we have a new generation of British who have different religions. Only recently have their religions come to the forefront of political & legislative changes to our society.
In the UK changes to the law can take time, esp when the House of Lords blocks changes. So the only fundamental changes have taken place in the last 20yrs or so.
It was/is mainly the heirarchy who had the wealth to have firearms & swords, as the peasants were paid a meagre amount, so as just to survive. There are similarities in todays society. Gun law is a funny one over here. I am not sure why the US (a "new" society) made the leap from not self arming, to self arming. In a new country, law & order takes time to be established & until then you looked after yourself. So as small communities took hold, they had the freedom to make such laws appropriate for self defense. This is something that the Brits did not have a problem with as such. Firearms did not come along until a LONG time since communities/towns & large cities were formed, they were not needed as much as in the US. The cost would have been prohibitive for common folk too.
In the UK, left wing is more socialist, right wing is almost dictatorial/nanny state, just give a rough analogy. Extreme right wing was Naziism, left wing was communism. (Funnily enough Hitler & Stalin admired each other before Hitler invaded, much the same as Hitler enjoyed/admired the British way of life)
The fundamentalists of any religion are a bad thing, they stifle debate & free choice. I suppose nearly every society has those.
I would love to be able to go shooting with an M16, or marksmenship with a huge rifle, unfortunately it is not that simple.
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aabbccdd
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8. April 2006 @ 10:53 |
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and a matter of fact iam going to the gun range tomorrow to shoot some of those rifles along with my 1911 and 9mm.
garmoon , i did hear about that in New Orleans but neer heard any follow up ,that was def. bullcrap
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gerry1
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8. April 2006 @ 11:17 |
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@garmoon...thanks for that; it was actually very interesting. I am woefully ignorant of foreign politics. I get a kick out of it though when I watch the BBC and see what I presume to be the parliament yelling at each other from opposite sides of the room with others yelling "Here Here"! I don't understand what is going on, but I do enjoy watching it LOL!
Have you ever shot an M-16 garmoon? If not, you'd probably be as surprised as I was the fist time I shot one. It didn't at all sound and feel like the lethal piece of machinery that it is. The 45 was something of a different story however. I was a marine corps corpsman during the viet nam war days. As such, I was more the protected than the fighter and demands on my marksmanship were non existant, but I'm not unfamiliar with them.
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2006 @ 11:22 |
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@gerry1
I wasn't referring to your comments, I was echoing what Pulsar had written. Quote:
If anything the politics is more right wing, not liberal! We are no where near liberal, more conservative. What with the obsession to control people & their actions.
Our politics are getting more & more right wing as each term of each government progresses.
The same is happening here in US. With the Moral Majority nipping at our heels. I'm sure that is to whom you referred.
What I was alluding to was that the our freedoms and privacy that we have enjoyed for years are slowly eroding away. They want our guns, they want our free thinking, our free expressions; took away a man's right to a beer but yet he may fight and die for his country, now they are taking private property and giving it to investors to "improve" (translated raise taxes) our cities. You can't pick your nose in private anymore. There are cameras everywhere. Cell phones tell the government, if they want to know, every place you've been and with whom you have conversed. Special discount cards at stores keep track of what you purchase, much like cookies on PCs. We are almost there buddy at 1984 but just a little late. When the guns go, Government will have succeeded.
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gerry1
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8. April 2006 @ 11:33 |
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@pulsar and garmoon....my apologies; I confused one for the other.
@pulsar...my apologies; thanks for taking the time to write that. It was very interesting. I didn't know that the protestant/catholic thing was still alive in the UK...perhaps because of the press involved in the Ireland mess.
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aabbccdd
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8. April 2006 @ 11:44 |
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garmoon, yeah i dont like the GPS system on the newer cell phones i know its for the 911 system but i dont trust it iam staying with my old "StarTAC" lol it doesnt have it
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Moderator
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8. April 2006 @ 12:14 |
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Hey Gerry, now that I'm clear I'll give my two cents. What it boils down to and what the Founding Fathers believed is that the Second Amendment is the one that guarantees the rest. The fact that millions of private citizens own firearms prevents the government from blatantly overstepping their bounds. Throughout history the first step towards enslaving a peoples is to disarm them and that's exactly what the Founding Fathers wanted to prevent. It may sound loopy to some but stop and think what the Bush administration might be doing right now if the common man had no recourse to his basic rights being stripped away. The Patriot Act is a travesty that allowed took away a huge amount of judicial oversight to what the government can do in the name of fighting terrorism. That's scary to me because checks and balances are vital to our system of government. I know what I've just said will have some folks thinking I'm a wacko but I sure don't like alot of what I see happening anymore.
Many people believe we as a society have progressed beyond the need for the Second Amendment but I don't believe that for a second. Our Founding Fathers were some of the most brilliant, forward thinking men to ever walk this earth and everything they set forth in the Bill of Rights is as pertinent today as it was back then. The funny thing is if they were alive today and saw how dysfunctional the government has become they'd be calling for a revolution - they stated in their writings that when a government became too oppressive it was the peoples duty to keep it in check - and for that they would be labeled terrorist and traitors. Ironic isn't it?
And now for the word militia. The use of the word 'militia' in the Second Amendment has been the subject of much controversy but more than few prominent Constitutional scholars and professors have stated that in the context of the times and according to the wealth of other writings from the Framers there's no doubt that the "well regulated militia" is every private citizen of this nation.
I'll close with a simple question for anyone and everyone - why should I, a law abiding citizen, be rendered defenseless to criminals who will still be armed after my rights were stripped in theory to prevent the crime they commit?
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. April 2006 @ 12:15
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