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Neph's POLITE Gun Debate
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aabbccdd
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12. April 2006 @ 00:52 |
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The_OGS , if you actually think i give a damn what a POS like Jimmy Carter and Bill Clition have to say with there liberal slanted point of view and them trying to undermine EVERYTHING then your dead wrong. if its so bad they can move to F@#K#@$ iraq i will pay there way. and as said this wont turn into a politcs thread , its a gun thread for or against.
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12. April 2006 @ 05:48 |
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In this argument, (and day and age) basic freedoms seem to holding hands with the right to bear arms. Our forefathers knew of oppression and tyranny oh too well. They also knew the greatest threat to freedom is not some overseas power, but rather the general apathy of the people themselves. As Americans we always respond quickly and forcefully to outside threats and aggression, but something which happens in another person's backyard, we really couldn't give a damm. Modern society is filled with cute catch phrases such as "not in my backyard" and "what's in it for me", cute statements which really serve as a barometer of the general apathy we call suburban life nowdays. Our ancestors would be appalled to survey the current political landscape, to really see what "progress has been made" towards the creation of a more perfect union.
A little off track, but one of the most enlightening displays I ever saw in the Smithsonian Institute was a series of cartoons drawn during the Clinton years by an Native American artist whose name I forget now, basically asking the question how is it right that so many Vietnam era vets are living in cardboard boxes while a draft dodger is living in the white house?
Sorry to digress but this country was founded by strong people who understood the need to live free, and the right to bear arms was one of the cornerstones of their dream to be free, 2nd only to the right of free speech. Keep that in mind next time you hear "NIMBY".
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gerry1
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12. April 2006 @ 10:51 |
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@jacsac... I want to say thanks for posting what you did; that was remarkably eloquent stuff. I'll have to remember the Franklin quote as he's Philly's favorite of the founding fathers...lived, died and buried here. I can't help but smile at the paradox...Franklin really despised the bald eagle as the american symbol because of the aggression it implies...he wanted the Turkey LOL!
@blivitNC...as a social worker in the proverbial big city; I see some of the worst apathy anyone can imagine for the wealthiest country in the world which cares for it's citizens worse that any other of the big 8. We're dead last.
I joined the Navy, got training as a surgical corpsman then they gave me new uniforms and threw me in the marine corps as a combat medic during and immdeiately after the vietnam war. I know a lot of vets disagree with me but I don't hold any hard feelings against Clinton or Cheney for their draft dodging or against Bush for using daddy to get cushy assignments. I'm not sure how old you are but those were very turbulent times; it wasn't like WWII where people knew what was going on. Guys were dying right and left and nobody had a clue why ... and people will resent it and revolt when they see no direct and immenent threat for which their kids are dying. I was not in combat (thank God) but given the nature of my job, I saw quite a lot that I wouldn't wish on anyone and now, thirty some years later, I still don't know why....heros all, in my book, but I don't know what their ultimate sacrifice was for. No one did. Many refused to put themselves in harm's way for nothing. Dying for one's country is patriotic...dying for nothing is nuts. I saw many die and didn't know why....still don't. If there's no reason, self preservation will take over in many. I don't fault any of them; hell, I often think they had more sense than me.
@aabbccdd...you would get no arguement from me that Jimmy Carter was a lousy president but you're being unfair; outside the political arena, if any every person (let alone former presidents) had the compassion that man has, the world would be a much better place. His is not lip service like all the other; there is much tangible evidence of his influence and efforts. Despite his crappy politics, he cares about fellow americans more than most.
INTERESTING ARTICLE ABOUT BEARING ARMS in one of today's Philadelphia papers. Center City Philadelphia has the third or fourth largest gay concentrations in the country; they gay neighborhoods in downtown Philly span for a couple of miles in all directions. Anyway, there has been a wave of gay bashing from rednecks in the outside farmlands, for lord knows what instigating reason, and they have decended on the big city. The consequence: Gay Gun Clubs and ranges, apparantly many of them, and because of the bashings and the hate crimes, they're easily getting licenses for "concealed" weapons. The paper has this large picture of a rainbow gay flag and the headline "Bash Me and You're Dead" and lower "Residents of gay district handle hate crimes by packing heat." I mention this merely because of recent discussions; I don't mean it as any sort of social commentary.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. April 2006 @ 10:54
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The_OGS
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12. April 2006 @ 11:51 |
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I don't disagree with the American contitutional rights, the logic of which jacsac and blivetNC and others have pointed out with eloquence.
It is difficult to disagree with The Bill of Rights Amendment II! The whole argument has great merit. The system works - but it contains some inherent disadvantages, which it is important to discuss.
Now, far be it for me to hold up Clinton as a paragon of virtue ;^) but Mr. Carter is a great man. Many good Americans (NRA members, probably many) agree with them too. It it not useful to insult these people aabbccdd, and you insult me too.
My own politics are somewhat centre-right, that makes me a Conservative is Canada, but I like to hold up the argument for The Left (I am married to one, and have many friends).
I feel we who uphold the right to bear arms are important to them because in The Great Battle they will be hopelessly slaughtered like sheep, more like lambs actually (they are mostly young) and will all perish if unarmed.
Yes unarmed Canadians are being killed by criminals in robberies or whatever, but not much - it's mostly kids with attitudes and guns shooting each other up, usually both sides armed LoL (as it should be).
So on the one hand I find myself worried about the intrusive role of The Crown in my life and friend Pulsar's, it's bullshit and this disarmament thing's a plot. I find myself allied with aabbccdd, and we worry about The Left (though possibly for different reasons).
On the other hand it's thought in Canada to be kind of scary going to the states for visit or whatever (we've all heard about the Japanese tourist who, being lost, knocked for assistance and got blasted) and scary to think about moving there.
We live (Pulsar, Lethal_B, aussies and I) under the protection of The Crown, and so it has been for centuries. Police in England are unarmed, for gawds sake. American guys have to remember, their culture in unique in the world.
Regards
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12. April 2006 @ 12:02 |
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When discussing self defence, gun laws etc, it is inevitable that politics & poilicies will enter the fray. It's a shame that the mere mention of a couple of Presidents will cause uproar & consternation. I object when one persons' opinion is lambasted, and shouted down, purely as one member disagrees. The whole point here is to have REASONED debate, with arguements put in a lucid manner. To shout someone down because you may disagree with them is unfair, unwarranted & goes against the principals of free speech. I am also sick to death of anyone who dares to argue to the contrary been labelled as a wishy washy Liberal, name calling is for the playground & 5 year old children. It has no place in a forum such as this that has many extremely learned & intelligent people as members.
I am extremely proud of being British, but if someone has a fair viewpoint against our way of life/government policies, then I will listen & if I have a decent arguement to the contrary, I will put it so in a polite manner.
If you wish to make a point, make it in a fair & respectful way. If you treat people like children or idiots, then expect to be treated the same way.
Gif by Phantom69
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gerry1
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12. April 2006 @ 12:20 |
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@The_OGS: When I cast my vote, I don't vote for a "paragon of virtue"; I'm electing a president, not a national patron saint or the pope. That Jimmie Carter is a hell of a humanitarian doesn't make him a good president any more than that fact that Clinton couln't keep his willie in his pants made him a bad one.
Your comment about Canadians being afraid to come to the states is one I've heard many times; my family lives in Quebec as I've mentioned before ... and I sponsor many foreign musicians in my home and I always hear the same thing. It truly is sad.
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12. April 2006 @ 13:40 |
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aabbccdd
Come on man. I know you're better than to go off like that. This thread for me is one of the most enjoyable in my better than three years here at AD and I really don't want to see it go bad. I know politics is a heated subject but a discussion about guns will inevitably include politics.
We've had our run ins in the past and I don't want another. I know you're a good guy so I'm asking you man to man - keep it chill alright? Everyone has the right to their opinion and to express it in a proper and decent manner so let's carry on and not get personal.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. April 2006 @ 13:42
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12. April 2006 @ 14:26 |
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One nice thing about this thread is everyone seems to be responding in proper English for a change with words spelled correctly and in proper syntax.
To Pulsar and Nephilim: You seem to have right idea for how this thread should proceed.
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12. April 2006 @ 15:05 |
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Thanks garmoon.
i nevr thot bout da werdz b4 u said sumpn bout it. 2 bad we dun have ne 1337 haxors hear.
Seriously it's very nice to see a measure of eloquence throughout an entire thread isn't it? I think the peaceful and thoughful manner in which this thread is progressing is due in large part to the intelligent and articulate folks taking part.
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that this thread, the one I created for arguments, has gone in a completely opposite direction and the gun thread I was so thrilled about has faded away?
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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12. April 2006 @ 17:37 |
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How about a little question back on topic. I seem to remember reading somewhere about a town here in the USA where it was mandatory to carry a gun. Does anybody remember anything like that? Its been a few years since I read that. Just some food for thought LOL.
Jerry
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gerry1
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12. April 2006 @ 17:43 |
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Yes, You're right...I'll have to look into that!
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Buik
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12. April 2006 @ 17:45 |
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I remember that story. Local jurisdictions can do that. America, where else?
TC
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12. April 2006 @ 22:04 |
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My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. April 2006 @ 08:17
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tocool4u2
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12. April 2006 @ 22:26 |
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Quote:
Philadelphia is armed to the teeth and, as mentioned earlier, we are the #1 city in the country for handgun murders. If an armed society is a polite society, we seem to be the exception to the rule ... we've also been given the honor of being the most unfriendly city in the US
I heard that Reading,PA was the most dangerous city in the northeast(maybe the country)
Edit take a look at this http://www.morganquitno.com/cit04a.pdf
Actually they say Camden,New Jersey is the most dangerous city
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. April 2006 @ 22:32
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13. April 2006 @ 04:03 |
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Just about any large city could win the award for most dangerous. Poverty breeds criminal activity. These people have to survive some way.
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Senior Member
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13. April 2006 @ 08:09 |
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its hard to beleive there could be a POLITE conversation about guns. so i had to see for myself :)
so far there are no fatalities.
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13. April 2006 @ 08:18 |
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So far, and I aim (terrible pun I know) to keep it that way :)
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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Randy1701
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2. May 2006 @ 20:52 |
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Wow, this really has been a great thread. Can't say that I would disagree with anyone's viewpoint here. I'm like Gerry on this one, torn because of all the violence you hear about and reluctant to give up the right to own my own guns and thus become a victim. The hard fact of it is that ultimately no police organization can be expected to protect you if you have a home invasion. Where my mother lives it can take 20 minutes or more for the police to respond. Of course the nearest police department is in the town not 2 miles from her, but she is outside of their jurisdiction, she still has to depend on the county police. Scary but true. 20 minutes can be a long scary time and by the time the police get there whatever was going to happen will probably have already happened. And the criminal doesn't necessarily need to have a gun to kill you. It's not the guns that are the problem, it's the attitude. Somehow the criminal's rights being protected have become more important than the victims right to defend self, family and property. Pulsar, I feel your pain. As far back as the mid 60's when I was in grade school a State Trooper gave a lecture at one of our PTA meetings. Of the various things he talked about one was what happens if you shoot an intruder. Basically the guy would have to be already in your home. "If you shoot him in the doorway make sure he falls inside, if he falls outside drag his ass in before the cops get there." It's only gotten worse since then. You have to prove you were in fear for your life, that he was armed in some way, and that you couldn't have wounded or restrained him somehow. If he shoots first, all the better. But if I let him shoot first I might be dead. And of course as Pulsar said if the criminal survives he's just likely to sue you and win. Don't let anyone ever try to tell you otherwise, in America we have a "legal" system not a "justice" system. So the courts attitude sucks.
And lately there have been the usual juvenile problems that go around in cycles. Vandalism and theft. I once had my car stolen and the police said that it was probably kids that had been stealing cars for joyrides and that nothing could be done about it. They would just get a wrist slap and sent home. Excuse me? That's the law enforcement attitude. And the kids know it, if you're underage you can get away with anything short of murder. Is it any wonder these kinds of kids grow up into criminals? Kids think they're invincible anyway they don't need authority figures telling them they're untouchable too. And then there was the guy who went to jail because he shot a kid who was trying to steal his car one night. Problem was he shot the kid in the back while he was running away. Not good, not right. My sister-in-law asked her daughter if she thought that was fair for a kid's life to be cut short over a car. My niece said no, but that the kid wouldn't have been shot at all if he wasn't up to no good in the first place. God bless her little heart. That's the lesson that really needs to be taught. Both the shooter and "victim" were in the wrong. But my niece knows not to ever put herself in the "victim's" position. Why is it she got that out of the story and my brother's wife didn't? Why would kids walk out in the street in front of your car and then glare at you as if daring you to hit them? Legally I'm supposed to stop and yield to the pedestrian. But my Dad taught me a long time ago that 2000 pound plus cars don't really care about skinny-assed boys, physics and common sense.
That's why the founding fathers got things so right in the first place, they were more concerned with what was right and wrong and common sense than with being politically correct. It's the attitudes that need changing. Why enact laws to register guns and make it more difficult for law abiding people to get them? Same reason as locks? - to keep honest people honest? As others have said, criminals just steal guns or buy them illegally anyway. Why do cops give speeding tickets to someone at 3 in the morning when there is no traffic but let everyone drive way over the speed limit in heavy rush hour traffic? Isn't that supposed to be more dangerous, possibly resulting in that 20 car pile up rather than the poor stupid deer that wanders across your path at night? Why do we worry so much about the rapist or drug dealer getting beat up by cops so much that we forget the guy was a criminal? Punish the cops for what they did wrong. Punish the criminal for what he did wrong. But don't spare a lot of sympathy for the criminal, save it for the poor cops who get so frustrated by the courts and lawyers protecting the scumbags "rights." Of course it is easier to ticket the lone speeder than have someone defending themselves as just "keeping up with the flow of traffic." Easier to blame the cops who are supposed to play by the rules and who will most likely admit their mistake than the criminal who will lawyer up and deny everything. Easier to enact gun laws that law abiding citizens will obey anyway than to go after the illegal gun users. We like easy solutions, or at least one's that make it appear as if something is being done. Gun registration laws are not necessarily bad, they help to keep basically honest people honest. But they are not the solution by a long shot.
Sorry so long winded but I grew up with guns and hunting. And while I don't use them as often as when I was younger I still wouldn't want anyone taking them away or saying I couldn't buy a new one anymore. Concentrate on taking cars away from drunks and leave me to sip my brandy by the fireplace. :) I wish.
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Moderator
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3. May 2006 @ 10:54 |
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This is the second wonderful post I've read in as many days and ,again, I agree with every point. You're not an editorialist are you? ;)
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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Randy1701
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3. May 2006 @ 13:07 |
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Hey Neph, thanks for the kind words.
Editorialist? I wish. In high school I loved to read but I hated English class. Diagramming sentences, symbolism, poetry, everything had to mean something else. I don't think I could have ever gone through the headaches of journalism classes just to get the credentials. So I took science classes instead. Ended up in the Air Force as an avionics tech. So between flights we usually had some downtime to talk about anything and everything. Great discussions. Sometimes ending in "You're an idiot...Yeah but you're a moron, next subject." I learned everyone believes something for a reason, they've put together the facts as they know them and drawn their conclusions. A person may be misinformed, or less informed than they need to be but it's good to find out why they believe what they do. Everyone knows something you don't, guaranteed. Not too sure if I'm interested in how cat gut becomes violin strings, but I might want to the next time my cat wants to use me as a scratching post.
Love this spot to vent, great variety of threads. I do use the forum for its main purpose though. It's just that I'm more of a (gasp) lurker. I usually find what I need to know without bothering anyone because the question has already been asked.
Anyway, back more on topic. I love Pulsar's observations about what goes on in Britain. Not so different from here. For decades we've heard that the whole world hates the US. But we see signs all the time that the rest of the world is slowly adopting some of our silliest ideas. As a nation we expect our government to take action to fix things. When they do it is often not well planned and almost always underfunded. Maybe that is just a problem with all governments. My silliest encounter now is that to renew my driver's license I have to show a birth certificate and social security card to prove I'm a US citizen. Well, I couldn't find my birth certificate so I took in my copy of my enlistment record which plainly states US citizen verified by birth certificate. That's not good enough. Okay for one thing, when I got my social security card I had to show a birth certificate, when I enlisted I had to show my birth certificate, and the State is trying to prove to the Federal government that they are only handing out drivers licenses to citizens. Excuse me, the Federal government already knows who I am, I've proved all this to them already. If there are any doubts send my fingerprints to the FBI, I'm already on file as is everyone who ever enlisted in the military. Do they want my DNA too; probably not, that would be too expensive. Of course, I could use an old expired passport (if I could find where I packed that away) instead of a birth certificate. Of course if I'm a serious terrorist then none of this is a problem anyway. There are ways to get around this just like getting around buying a gun legally. So its just another program to convince people that something is being done and the honest people are the ones being inconvenienced. Not really a big problem but annoying, now I have to send off for a copy of my birth certificate. Requirements to get a copy? Social security number, property tax receipt, drivers license(?) or a valid military ID (active duty or retired), and of course MONEY. What kind of tail chasing logic is that? Yep, sometimes Americans are more ashamed of our government's own stupidity than other countries are. The UK government can use our lead as an example if they want, they just better question how we screwed something up before trying it themselves.
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3. May 2006 @ 16:23 |
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Guess you don't exist wothout a birth certificate huh?
Whenever I hear statements that our society is so 'modern' and 'sophisticated' it makes me laugh. We've really become ridiculous with delusions of sophistication.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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Buik
Member
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3. May 2006 @ 16:46 |
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@ Randy1701
Since you obviously are not a citizen of "New Mexico", perhaps you should illegally immigrate from your state to here. Would a valid New Mexico driver's license from get the job done? This kind of reminds me when I was in my 40's and had to attend a DWI awareness class (at my expense) to get a NM license (after having an Oregon license for 30~ years) because it was going to be my first DL in NM.
All you need is a social security card, gas bill (one from your gastroenterologist might be OK) that has an address & a few other inconsequential documents, and BAM, you have a license.
TC
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gerry1
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9. June 2006 @ 06:30 |
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I may be buying a weapon (excuse me, an anitque)and while it's not a firearm, it seemed like a neat place to put it. It is an ebony cane with a carved amber crook handle from 1860s London ... from the clever minds of our british friends. Released from a spring mechanism trigger in the handle, our pops from the bottom of the cane a 13inch dual edged stiletto. It is still perfectly functional. While it is illegal to use as a weapon, it's perfectly legal to own as an antique (...that from our brilliant legislative minds). Will let you know and post pics if I can decide to part with the cash ($600).
P.S. As someone who must walk with a cane much of the time on the streets of Philly ... this is a functional purchase, not something to hang on my wall.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. June 2006 @ 06:33
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9. June 2006 @ 10:05 |
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Oh nice! Post some pics as soon as you can, I'd love to see it :)
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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9. June 2006 @ 10:29 |
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DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you dont know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate . . .
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