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What are the good brands of CD-R out there?
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Moderator
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26. January 2007 @ 17:08 |
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No problem there Platy767
Nice pics btw. You're like me and burn to the edge!
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Platy767
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26. January 2007 @ 18:06 |
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That's just the Nero test file going all the way. But, if we are going to have a test, it should be all of it!
You can see how the CMC Verbs really suffer on the perimeter.
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sorrow93
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26. January 2007 @ 23:44 |
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@platy767
an aussie discount shop is advertising a Maxell 50 spindle cdr for $14.99 would you recommend them?
I could take a gamble but back in my mind says stick with what I trust... I won't know where the Maxell are manufactured until I visit the tassie shop.
any advice? Do Maxell standards beat TDK in Oz?
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Platy767
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27. January 2007 @ 00:14 |
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I also have Advanced Quality Scans for each of the discs I tested. With the Maxell (Ritek) coming in at Class 3. The TDK (Taiyo Yuden) came in better, at Class 2. I would rate the TY media above Ritek. Be careful of TDK, because there is a lot of CMC Mag discs from TDK, eg TDK Gold.
Have a look at this about the DVD media from a company that sells both Ritek and TY.
http://www.pcx.com.au/products/buyers_Ta...79&p=1079&g=416
Mind you, I did buy a 10 spindle of Maxells the other day! (Was only $5, and you never know when I may need some more for testing!)
They are White IJ Ritek with maxell on the hub. The label is blue and has MQ in gold on a small gold circle. The MQ means master quality.
I have put some video clips on one, and it looks OK.
Ultimately it comes down to your data - your cash
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Platy767
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27. January 2007 @ 00:32 |
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@sorrow93
Answering your earlier question about 50 for $15 - No I wouldn't buy them. I don't have a need for 50 at 1 time. I've only used a couple and I bought them on spec. 50, that's a lot of discs if they are no good, and besides,I have access to TY in smaller quantities.
Here is the Advanced Disc Quality scan for Maxell (Ritek)
Here is the Advanced Disc Quality scan for the TDK (TY)
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sorrow93
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27. January 2007 @ 00:33 |
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@platy767
thanks for getting back to me so quickly mate.
the discount store I cannot think of the term, they sell discontinued products I might take a punt on the Maxell.
I mainly want them for audio. I used to buy the TDK Audio from DSE until I felt a fool when told they are designed for stand-alone-burners only.
I burned a heap of TDK Gold until told they are suited for data not audio... at the moment I use those bluish tdk they work sweet with my players. cd-r80x I just had a look at the 100 tin they say "made in India" that surprises me didn't realise that until now.
sorry to pick your brain but I learn alot from you
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sorrow93
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27. January 2007 @ 00:38 |
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sorry for the confusion we are talking cd-r not DVD-R ?
I am the opposite I won't buy a spindle of 50 dvdr's at the moment because I don't have the need but I would go through 50 cdr's within a month.
massive music fan lol.
new to dvd burning I just buy the ten-packs
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Platy767
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27. January 2007 @ 00:41 |
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@sorrow93,
Well, you're in trouble if you're relying on me, mate! Thankfully there are people on this forum who understand the results and data.
Seriously, if you have choice between the blue TDK tin and TDK Gold or the maxells, I would go for the maxell and expect these to be a Ritek disc.
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Platy767
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27. January 2007 @ 00:43 |
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@sorrow93,
Me again. About the Ritek v TY link. That was just for info, I understand we are not talking DVD, but we are on about CD-R media.
I also understand that good DVD media does not neccessarily mean good CD-R media, and vice versa.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27. January 2007 @ 00:49
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sorrow93
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27. January 2007 @ 00:52 |
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thanks for that link.
some of it goes above my head at the moment but hey we all learn :)
did the India made surprise you?
okay I will cut to the chase if I visit the store read the Maxell fine-print what should I look for?
keeping in my mind Ritek and possible MQ.
sorry if I am driving you nutty but I do have a passion for burning audio
did you ever have probs with Imation?
I don't know if it was a former burner at fault but I have sworn to avoid Imation at all costs.
*too many questions at once* You will curse me
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Platy767
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27. January 2007 @ 01:24 |
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No, India does not surprise. I think Moser Baer are there.
The Imations I have are CMC Mag. The TDK Gold I have are CMC Mag. The thing is - they all play OK. They don't skip tracks or sound like the are only running on 12 bits. They sound OK.
I did tests for my own curiosity, just like I used to do for cassette tapes, to see if there were differences between media. Doh, there is! So, from now on, I'll use the media that gives less errors on my setup. Doesn't mean I'll toss out the TDKs,Imations or Silver Verbs that I have burned. They play OK on the CD player. I haven't used them for any critical backups/archives. I will keep an eye on them and give them a scan now and then. There is nothing on them that I can't recover elsewhere.
The thing with the Maxells was:
Maxell on the hub - probably all maxells have this.
They were White Ink Jet printable.
They had a blue top label on the spindle that had a gold circle and MQ in gold. They are Made in Taiwan. There is no mention of Ritek. I only found that out when I put them in with Nero CD-DVD Speed.
Hope this helps.
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sorrow93
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27. January 2007 @ 01:39 |
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Platy767
You have helped. thankyou for tolerating my questions I don't know alot of people who know their stuff and when I do I tend to bombard them with questions. apologies.
The Maxell appear to be gold coloured no inkjets but I feel I will try them and find out for myself. worse case scenario $15 out of pocket besides I could onsell them to friends if I needed the money back.
I will let you enjoy whats left of your saturday night mate
thanks again for the help.
I was a cassette boy years ago collected hundreds of tapes and wanted the best recording quality :))
cheers
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Platy767
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30. January 2007 @ 21:48 |
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Seeing that we have been mentioning CMC Mag media from Imation and TDK Gold, I though a couple of scans were in order. These are from disks burned within the last 18 months.
First is an Imation with audio.
Next is a TDK Gold with audio.
Then I have a recently burned Verbatim LightScribe (Verbatim media).
The CMC media has many more times the reported errors than the Verbatim disk. All 3 play fine.
Is there an up to date opinion about what CD-Rs "sound" the best for audio? That is, played as a CD on a CD player - no compression.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. January 2007 @ 21:49
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sorrow93
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31. January 2007 @ 17:06 |
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@platy767
those tests are interesting I am learning still but the verbatim was nice ... Now I swear TDK sound the best on my players but I am bias towards them have you tried the Verbatim "vinyl" cd-r the ones designed like a record? They gave me grief at first when they had a deep blue surface but in recent times this changed to somewhat gold dye/surface.
Perhaps if you track them down you might give them a test?
manufactured in Taiwan.
available in some aussie stores.
slightly more expensive than other media
my opinion worth it
sorry if you have already tested them.
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Platy767
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31. January 2007 @ 18:31 |
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I know the ones you mean. No, I haven't tried them. I have become cautious of any Verb CD-R that does not have DataLifePlus and Super AZO (Verbatim manufacture) on the label.
But, I will keep an eye out for them.
Thx.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. January 2007 @ 18:31
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JoeRyan
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2. February 2007 @ 06:53 |
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A few notes:
Writing on a DVD with a Sharpie cannot harm the disc because the top is a 0.6 mm layer of plastic. CD-Rs are different. Only a layer of lacquer protects the written area. The label ink and a printable surface add more protection, but the CD-R is always more susceptible to chemical damage from writing instruments than a DVD.
Digital Audio CD-Rs differ from data CD-Rs only in a bit number in the ATIP identifying them as suitable for stand-alone stereo recorders. There is no other difference at all. Digital audio CD-Rs cost more because they include levies to offset all the nasty piracy damage caused to artists by people who love the artists' music. The levy money goes to the record companies. They keep it. So who is the real pirate?
CD-Rs cannot sound different from each other theoretically. If they do sound different, it is due to the way a player's error correction works and the type of errors and distribution on the disc. Errors are a function of disc quality, drive quality, and subsequent recording quality that includes dozens of variables. That's why scan scores do not indicate the quality of the disc unless the drive is calibrated. (Calibration drives cost about $3,000.) The scans indicate the quality of playback on the drive being used, and that quality is a composite of all the factors above.
Digital recording is quite a bit different from analogue recording where the differences in the tape media contributed immensely to sound quality. (But here, too, the recording was also determined by bias and equalization settings as well as head geometry.)
The "bluish" CD-Rs use either cyanine or azo-cyanine dyes that are not as stable in heat or light as the phthalocyanine dyes used by most other CD-Rs. The difference these days is small, but it still exists. This is of importance only for anyone who expects CD-Rs to last over several decades.
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Platy767
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2. February 2007 @ 16:39 |
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Thanks for the info on disc construction.
With standalone CD players set up to read pressed discs, and the CD-Rs trying to emulate CD performance, is there no difference between the dye types as far as the standalone CD player is concerned? (Apart from longevity)I suppose there isn't, because if there was, we would be using only that type of CD-R for audio!
Just on errors..I work with a lot of 2Mb/sec comms systems and would be very concerned if error rates/values were reported like they are in CDs. Does the data come off a disc asynchronously or are data reading / writing / extraction just very ordinary. I think I need to read up a bit more.
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piano632
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2. February 2007 @ 18:02 |
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Wow, are you sure those CD-R error rates are correct? I burn lots of audio CD's at 2x (I can't stand high-speed-burned audio CD's, I can really hear a difference) and using MAM-A CD's for C1 errors I get 0.03 average; 12 max.; maybe 150 total for the whole disc. So apparently burning at slow speed really does make a big difference in error rates.
On the other hand, I don't put much weight on Nero Quality scores. Their test is flawed because you never get the same results twice with the same disc. And Nero assigns a quality score based on the worst spike on the graph, not the overall disc.
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Platy767
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2. February 2007 @ 23:07 |
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The error rates are only as they are reported by the tool. I specifically bought a benqDW1650 so I could do some error numbers on CD-Rs. If you look on the previous page you will see a list of error counts from CD-Rs burned on my laptop with "Create Disk" in Nero CD-DVD speed and then read on the Benq.Only 1 of each disc type done, but with the same burner, in the same PC, with the same data file.
The results you are getting (is that a Mitsui Gold Archive disc?) seem much more in the range that I would expect. What drive are you scanning with?
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Platy767
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2. February 2007 @ 23:13 |
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Incidentally,
Here is a scan of a "new" pressed CD.
I figured if I was getting error rates around or less than the number on a CD-R as a pressed disc, it would be OK.
Thanks.
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sorrow93
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2. February 2007 @ 23:40 |
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@Platy 767
those verbatim Vinyl Cdr's have actually disappeared from the place I was buying them lets hope they have not been scrapped/discontinued.
I had this theory that they were good for audio because they were designed for music and not stand-alone (typical audio-discs).
anyway, give them a try oneday if you see them
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piano632
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3. February 2007 @ 05:36 |
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I use the silver MAM-A discs (the real ones; I hear there are fake ones roaming about) but I also get similar results with most any good quality discs like TY or Ricoh (which incidentally I consider these 3 brands to have the best audio quality). I use a Lite-On XJ-HD166S DVD-ROM drive for scans, maybe not the best choice but I still think some of those error numbers are way too high for CD media.
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Platy767
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3. February 2007 @ 15:29 |
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The numbers are in the same ballpark as scans I see on other CD-R related sites.
I went for the Benq - just for scanning, based on a comment on the other site.
Basically it was recommeded above plextor,liteon, some other drive or flipping a coin.
The liteon drive that was being being discussed at the time, SHW-160P6S, apparently does not report C1 errors correctly.
All this is second hand - not my comments.
Anyhow, I appreciate your comments on the MAM-A and other discs, and I'll try some.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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5. February 2007 @ 04:48 |
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There is no difference in dye types in terms of reading. There is a difference in terms of writing--phthalocyanine reacts very quickly and has a "short write" strategy while cyanine and azy-cyanine dyes react more slowly and have a "long" write strategy. The strategy is based on the power levels applied to the write laser. Phthalocyanine dyes react better at faster speeds while the cyanine and azo-cyanine work better at slower speeds because of the reaction times of the dyes. Recording at 2X on a phthalocyanine dye is not a good idea because of jitter rates and poorly defined edges. MAM-A uses the Mitsui phthalocyanine dye; so 2X and MAM-A discs are not a good match for jitter or other disc parameters.
The errors reported as C1 or C2 errors are uncorrected errors sent to the Reed-Solomon error correction circuitry. All of those errors are corrected. They do not determine the actual sound quality if the error correction circuitry is "perfect," but large bursts of errors or error patterns can modulate the circuitry of poorly designed circuits in a way that may be audible.
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Platy767
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5. February 2007 @ 11:46 |
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Thanks JoeRyan,
So...we are better to use a CD-R media / burner combination that results in the lesser number of errors? We should use a combination that reduces the "risk" of having bursts that overload/ overrate error correction circuitry? Sounds good to me (pun intended!)
Even my non statistical, one off scanning has identified that my burner does better, that is, reports lower error counts, with media other than media from CMC Magnetics. These CMC discs have been labelled as Imation, TDK, Verbatim.
Better results have come from Taiyo Yuden, Verbatim, and Ritek manufactured media. The trouble is these also have been labelled from TDK (TY), Verbatim (Verbatim), and Maxell (Ritek).
I tried the Verbatim "Vinyl" CD-R and it's also a CMC disc - similar results to the others from that manufacturer.
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