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JoeRyan
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17. August 2007 @ 05:29 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I've talked to Nero engineers about why some people do not like the software's handling of DL media. They claim there is nothing wrong with the way it works, but some people like the ability to choose where the layer break occurs instead of having the software automatically choose it. (Both L0 and L1 must have identical data sizes. Simply breaking the video data in half means that sometimes the break can come in the middle of a critical scene, and the slight pause will be irritating. Movie mastering engineers try to alter the compresssion schemes so that the break comes during a change in the scenes and is less noticeable. Some recording software also allows that. Nero doesn't.

I think that most of the problems lie with the drives and their match with the media. A DL disc that has a poor second layer on one drive can have a much better performance if recorded on a different drive. That suggests to me that the drive has more influence than the medium. Supporting evidence is that older DL drives still produce "unbalanced" DL recordings with one layer or the other having a much greater level of PIE errors than the other. A newer drive using those same discs typically shows better results. The only thing that changed was the drive and its firmware.

Where discs had their biggest problem in manufacturing was in trapping bubbles when the outer layer was applied to the inner layer or leaving debris when the photopolymer stamper was removed from the disc. It took Verbatim nearly a year to figure out how to resolve these problems, and they had a big advantage when they introduced DL media. Everyone else had to play catch up, and the bubbles where a big problem. Vacuum chambers were one expensive solution. Finally, Ricoh took a gamble on eliminating the photopolymer stamper that created debris and was tossed out and using an upside-down or "inverse" stack method of making DL media. The good news is that this method improves yield and reduces costs substantially. The bad news is that IS DL media have to be restricted to newer 8X discs because the older drives have trouble recording them unless their firmware is changed--and how many drive manufacturers can afford to have engineers support 3-year old drives when a new one costs only $40?

I think that DL media will become much less expensive with the expansion of IS manufacturing later this year. Buying a new drive will not only allow recording on these new media but will also show better results on 2.4X/4X and DVD-R DL discs. It's a matter of buying a new drive for $40 or continuing to pay $150 for drives and have our older ones supported beyond 6 months. The consumer appears to prefer cheaper new drives than long-term support of older models.
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17. August 2007 @ 05:46 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
well that all makes sence. even to me..lol so if your gonna burn a DL disc you should let the program(like nero) decide where the break should be instead of doing it yourself. which i dont/havent burnt many DL disc maybe 10-15 and that was when i first started bruning and didnt know what i was doing.
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17. August 2007 @ 08:07 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
@JoeRyan,

I know the main reason I went away from using Nero to burn DL disks was the inability to control the burning speed. Nero defaulted and greyed out the burn speed selection at MAX. I've since upgraded to Nero 7 and have neglected to see if the new version has re-enabled the burn speed control.

I know Verbatim has gotten the DL layer break right. If you say the 8x & up DLs from other companies are the new manufacturing process I'll have to track some down and give them a try, especially if I can find some Ricohs (not Ritek). Personally, I've burned hundreds of the DLs and with the exception of the Verbs, haven't found any that handle the layer break well. I seem to remember that Ritek was better with the layer break about 1½ years ago but not lately. I also prefer the printables which not everyone offers.


JoeRyan
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17. August 2007 @ 10:42 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
When the choice of speeds is greyed out in Nero, that usually means that the drive does not recognize the M-code. I'm surprised that it is still greyed out in Nero 7 for Verbatim DL media since they are the ones for which every DL drive has firmware. That may be a clue that something else is amiss; but if your DL recordings still work, it may not be worth changing anything.
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17. August 2007 @ 13:41 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
well i just got back form microcenter. i got the 10pc windata 8x dvd+r DL for $8.99. ill have to wait till i get home tonight to give them a try.. BTY they are made in Hong Kong... :(~ heck its only 9 bucks..lol im wanting to see what they code out as... i have had windatas from microcenter before code out as verbs and TY's lol gotta love the fake stuff...lol
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17. August 2007 @ 14:13 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
@cincyrob
I may have to mail you some $ to get me some - no microcenter here. For that price I wouldn't care if they fail or not.

@joeryan
Txs for another informative post!



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AfterDawn Addict

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17. August 2007 @ 14:54 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
well i'll find out here in a few hours how they work..lol

hell the 20pc for 14.99 is a better deal than what i got...
AfterDawn Addict

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17. August 2007 @ 18:57 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
heres the dvd identifier on those windataDL disc..not bad i guess if they are real...


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Disc Identifier : [DVD+R-DL:RICOHJPN-D01-067]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disc & Book Type : [DVD+R DL] - [DVD+R DL]
Manufacturer Name : [Ricoh Co. Ltd.]
Manufacturer ID : [RICOHJPN]
Media Type ID : [D01]
Product Revision : [067]
Blank Disc Capacity : [4,173,824 Sectors = 8.55 GB (7.96 GiB)]
Recording Speeds : [2.4x , 3.3x-8x]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ DVD Identifier V5.0.1 - http://DVD.Identifier.CDfreaks.com ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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17. August 2007 @ 20:46 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
ok this is ugly. not only did it take 40 mins to burn this but this scan is nasty... i burnt it at 4x and scan also done at 4x.

plus the jitter stopped at the break. and do DL disc book type? this one didnt

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/Cincrob/DL4x.png
zebadee
Member
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17. August 2007 @ 23:02 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by cincyrob:
ok this is ugly. not only did it take 40 mins to burn this but this scan is nasty... i burnt it at 4x and scan also done at 4x.

plus the jitter stopped at the break. and do DL disc book type? this one didnt

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/Cincrob/DL4x.png

Hi ;-)
1st. If using DL, CloneCD is ideal as it keeps the original layer break. For those who don't want the trailers etc. Because protection has been removed you can once DVD is in player. Manually skip these.
As for DL bitsetting, you may find depending on the drive that you have to set this each time (using CD/DVDSpeed).
Some s/w like Nero or ImgBurn should/will allow this setting to be automatic.


This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 17. August 2007 @ 23:03

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18. August 2007 @ 03:38 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
well i did use clonedvd2 to burn that with and every other time on a Single Layer disc it did change automaticlly.

here is a scan on a 16x+r verb.. gotta love these bad boys.. and yes this one was pulled from my HDD and burnt with clonedvd2.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/Cincrob/mydvd-1.png
Senior Member
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18. August 2007 @ 13:00 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
say, isn't that last DL a profile of Stone Mountain outside Atlanta?? LOL! :P (Nice 16x BTW!)

On all my DL scans lately my jitter scan stops at the layer break, even if it's a good burn. Haven't figured that one out yet.

DL +Rs are booktypeable, but its a separate setting in your litey firmware. I've got my +Rs & +R DLs set to booktype to DVD-ROM and my RWs to stay as RWs.

I've been using ImgBurn to burn my DLs (Rip to HD, then burn with ImgBurn), but have just discovered that the new Nero 7 allows control of the burning speed for DLs (Nero 6 greyed out at MAX, not a good thing). Have done a couple but I also flashed that drive with new firmware so it's still learning.

I've also got a new DL scan coming where I burned thru Shrink to the DL, scanning right now. A Verb of course, I've learned my lesson until I'm shown there's a new big dog in town.

BTW, I'm now burning the Verb DLs @ 4x (max for my drives) and am getting as good or better results than @ 2.4x. Verb must have changed/improved their DL production technique.


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18. August 2007 @ 14:04 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Here's a new SL frim me, I know that if I scan this @ 4x the peaks at the beginning would dissapear.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/...x4xVerbburn.png

BTW, the DL scan I mentioned above is "stuck" at the layer break.


Newbie
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19. August 2007 @ 05:08 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
So here is a new scan i just did, i'm a bit disappointed in myself for not checking the burning speed, i was trying for 8x but chose 12x by mistake on this one but i guess its ok 93 on Quality Score

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i307/C..._SS25_19--1.png

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 19. August 2007 @ 05:16

Moderator

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19. August 2007 @ 06:19 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Why not use Imageshack and post a thumbnail of the scan instead of the full screenshot that photobucket gives you?


AfterDawn Addict

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19. August 2007 @ 06:40 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
you mean like this LOCO




i dont know if that isnt the same as actually posting the scan..lol who knows?


Senior Member
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19. August 2007 @ 08:49 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
did two scans of burned dvds about 3 years old, was curious to see how they held up...

anyway here is a Verb MMC002 burned with a sony Dru-500A(remember paying like $350 for this burner..dam that was expensive, i dont know what i was thinking)
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j287/c...3yearsMCC02.jpg

brace yourself for this one Verb MMC01RG20(was able to rip this to my HDD with no errors :)
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j287/c...rb3yearsago.jpg

BTW, both of these have a paper label(didn't know much back then with burning)



"When I look at the smiles on all the childrens faces, I just know theyre about to jab me with something."- Homer Simpson

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 19. August 2007 @ 08:58

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19. August 2007 @ 11:39 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Yep, that is what I was talking about Rob...that thumbnail is 10X smaller than the actual .png that you are directed offsite to view.


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19. August 2007 @ 11:47 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
OK I'm a little lost on the link and the difference between the thumbnail. If you click on the thumbnail it directs you to the full size image anyway and that's what we want to look at btw. :) Just curious on what the difference is bandwidth wise or does it matter. :D I do like seeing the preview image before I click just in case it's something that I may not want to see, LIKE most of the stats but they have something for the discerning. :P

....gm

[img]quoted from creaky, "I think i need a break away from this thread, you are just talking absolute and utter nonsense now. Im off to ban myself and hit myself repeatedly with blunt objects. And if im still conscious after that im going to install Windows Me."[/img]
PC build thread blank media thread Ultimate DVD Backup resource thread what did binkie7 do to me???
Senior Member
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20. August 2007 @ 09:55 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Remeber that DL of mine that was stuck on the layer break? Well, it never finished, at least it never moved off the layer break before I cancelled the scan.

I re-burnt the disk, same settings. This one "hung" also bur finally continued and finished.

Here's the scan.

And here are the stats. Note the elapsed time!

I should say this is a new cake box of the Verb DLs.

I played that DL which never completed. The movie played fine but the specials were not available on the secondary menu.

The second DL played fine, including the secondarys.


This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. August 2007 @ 09:57

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20. August 2007 @ 10:00 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
hobbit that's a pretty good scan tho. One spike in the PIE's of 265 that I could see and one spike of 3 on PIF's which is impressive. :) I need to do some other burns of the Dynex DL media for comparison. YOU'LL be HAPPY with the results you're getting. lol.

...gm

[img]quoted from creaky, "I think i need a break away from this thread, you are just talking absolute and utter nonsense now. Im off to ban myself and hit myself repeatedly with blunt objects. And if im still conscious after that im going to install Windows Me."[/img]
PC build thread blank media thread Ultimate DVD Backup resource thread what did binkie7 do to me???
Senior Member
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20. August 2007 @ 10:03 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Here's another DL scan, could have been the first one out of the cake box.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/...hVerb4xburn.png


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20. August 2007 @ 11:05 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
How'd you like the elapsed time in the stats??


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20. August 2007 @ 11:13 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I thought that is was a little "excessive" if you will. hehehe. At least you get a decent scan and score over 90 most of the time. I maid a mistake and I know it but we always hope, right?? I'll be getting the real thing next time even if it isn't Verbatim. MIHK stuff is NO good and I've known that for years but I'm stubborn sometimes. :P

....gm

[img]quoted from creaky, "I think i need a break away from this thread, you are just talking absolute and utter nonsense now. Im off to ban myself and hit myself repeatedly with blunt objects. And if im still conscious after that im going to install Windows Me."[/img]
PC build thread blank media thread Ultimate DVD Backup resource thread what did binkie7 do to me???
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AfterDawn Addict

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21. August 2007 @ 03:28 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
MIHK does suck..lol these DL disc i have now are MIHK.but hey (bucks for 10 disc). once again you get what you pay for...

well far be it for me not to post a scan in my own thread on my B-day..lol
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/C...GL0J_20-A-1.png

one of the better scans on the 16x+r TYs(hubprintable)

heres another scan of them windata DL disc..junk!!!!!!!!!
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/C...L0J_20-Augu.png
 
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