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Another new build advice thread
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PacMan777
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9. October 2007 @ 07:49 |
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Sammorris
There's also other advantages to the Corsair a lot of people don't pay attention to. For those who don't like to search, here's the features for the Corsair HX series:
Supports the latest ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 standards and is backwards compatible with ATX12V 2.01 systems.
Guaranteed compatibility with dual-GPU configurations.
Double forward switching circuitry design offers high efficiency, up to 80% under wide load range.
Active Power Factor Correction with PF value=0.99 provides clean and reliable power to your system.
Universal AC input 90~264V automatically scans and detects the correct voltage. No more hassle of flipping that tiny red switch!
Ultra quiet 120mm double ball-bearing fan delivers excellent airflow at an exceptionally low noise level by varying the RPM in response to temperature.
Guaranteed to deliver rated specifications at 50ºC.
Triple 12V Rails provide independent reliable power to the CPU, video card and other components with a combined rating of 50A (40A on 520W) maximum! Advanced circuitry design that automatically enables power sharing between the triple +12V rails in an event of overload on any single +12V rail.
Powerful +5Vsb rail with 3A rating.
Over Current/Voltage/Power Protection, Under Voltage Protection, and Short Circuit Protection provide maximum safety for your critical system components.
105ºC rated industrial grade capacitors provide uncompromised performance and reliability, delivering 4 times the lifespan of conventional 85ºC rated capacitors.
Enhanced modular flexible cables enable easier cable routing and increased airflow in the system.
Gold Plated connectors provide oxide free ultra low-resistance contact between the power supply and your critical components.
8 Serial ATA connectors (4 on 520W).
Dimension: 5.9"(W) x 3.4"(H) X 5.9"(L)
150mm(W) x 86mm(H) x 150mm(L)
MTBF: 100,000 Hours
Safety Approvals: UL, CUL, CE, CB, FCC Class B, TÜV, CCC, C-tick.
I marked in red some of the highpoints and things you may not see, or not as upscale, on other brands. Many good PSU's only work to 75% of the rated output while the Corsair goes to 80%. Power Factor Correction (PFC) is there, not on a lot of PSUs. I think the features speak for themselves. I hadn't noticed these going at this price. Anybody wanting a good power supply would be hard pressed to beat this one at $99.99. Don't get me wrong. Corsair isn't the only PSU I like, but at these prices, if I was building today, I'd go with the HX520 from Corsair. Some people may not pay attention, but backing up the quality build is a 5 year warranty, one of the longest in the industry. Most people don't keep a PC for 5 years.
My personal PC has a 620, but I have it on a healthy OC that I tuned in. It's been running there for a year and I couldn't achieve the same high OC with some lesser PSUs I tried. I learned my lesson on PSUs, don't buy one just because it's cheap. Run down the specs to see what it offers relative to the competition, then use that info to compare price. Sometimes cheaper isn't worth what's being given up. For a good PSU, I consider anything under $100 inexpensive. Bestbuy.com made the HX520 a very good and inexpensive PSU in my estimation.
The PC Power & Cooling PSU mentioned at $129.99 makes one of the best single rail PSU's on the market. That's the problem from my point of view (and a lot of other builders) it's a single rail. The feature list and my earlier post note why I'd go with Corsair and the Corsair now appears to cost less. I don't think the extra 90W with the PC Power and Cooling unit is worth the extra $30. If so, I'd go with an HX620. ZipZoomFly has that one for $126 after a $20 rebate. For what I do, I'd take the HX620 at $126. But we're trying to help LOCO trim a few dollars while getting the best bang for the dollar.
@LOCOENG
I guess you know where I stand on PSUs right now. LOL I'm not completely sold on Corsairs alone. Like I mentioned before, there's others I like, they just cost more for the added features and you're looking for best bang for the buck.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. October 2007 @ 07:57
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. October 2007 @ 08:02 |
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Agreed, there's so much more to the Corsairs than incredibly low noise, but to a lot of people, the rest of it means very little.
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PacMan777
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9. October 2007 @ 10:49 |
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Sammorris
True. The particular specs and build quality determine if the PSU is going to deliver good clean power and continue to do so, even under adverse conditions. For a regular PC, stock settings, and no difficult programs (i.e. encoding, CAD, ...), most PSUs will work as long as they can carry the load. There's watt calculators a person can use to determine what's needed. Personally I prefer the better PSUs so I don't worry about problems related to cheaper ones.
@LOCO
Would you rather drive the locomotive or a handcar? ;) That's sorta like the difference between a good PSU and some of the ones that just work.
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Senior Member
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9. October 2007 @ 11:56 |
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@pacman777
I absolutely prefer Single Rails...Multiple Rails are just a Marketing Gimmick that have No Real World Benefits...The Top tier P/S Manufacturers are going back to the Single Rail Theory...Remember Multiple Rails came out just to meet an Archaic Standard...that is Not Necessary...or Beneficial...
The 8-pin connector...Doesn't add anything different...they just provide better sharing (load balancing) of exisiting power rails..:)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. October 2007 @ 12:26
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9. October 2007 @ 15:49 |
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On the other hand, there's nothing particularly wrong with multi-rail PSUs, so I don't disrecommend them either.
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Senior Member
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9. October 2007 @ 17:09 |
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I recommend Multi Rail P/S...if I can not fit a Single Rail in to the Budget...In this Instance...it Fits the Budget...and is Superior in every Single Category...Including Efficiency...which will result in Less Electrical Usage...and in the Long Term...More Cash Saved...
Multi Rails have No Benefit except...to Over Inflate the Total Available Amperage Number of a P/S...They Do Not Increase Stability...They can only Cause Problems and Further Confuse the Consumers...
I have yet to read of a Valid Argument...by any Legitimate Review Site...for there Continued Existence...They are used Now...as Marketing Ploys...to Justify Inferior Products...as Equals...to Far Superior Products...
Its Simple...Its Cheaper to produce a Multi Rail P/S...then it is to produce a Comparable Single Rail P/S...
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9. October 2007 @ 17:43 |
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LOL!! I think that we are arguing/discussing which is better: Apples or Oranges. :D In this case I like both and will have to make a decision on the next P/S that I buy. I agree on the conveniences of the Corsair 520 and 620. Modular cabling has me interested but the PC P & C power supplies are so good and so revered. :D
BOTH are good and have their following. I think some of us going back and forth over something like getting your gold in a BIG BAR or a BIG BAG is silly. They're both GOLD. hehehehe. ;P
....gm
edit: grammar.....
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. October 2007 @ 18:08
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Senior Member
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9. October 2007 @ 18:36 |
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I Guess I should have put a ..:) at the end...I do not mean to argue...if that is how people are taking it...I apologize..:)
I was just attempting to Inform Accurately with out Bias...Most people Add Value to P/S having modular cables...I take away Value for Modular Cables..:)
A Modular System is Less Efficient Electrically...It only Adds an Aesthetics Value...It Does Not Increase Air Flow...In Real World Building...it Actually...Decrease the Airflow to the Immediate Area where the Cables Exit the Case..:)
I Guess I Need a Smiling Yoda in My Sig..:)
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9. October 2007 @ 19:26 |
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Originally posted by Lp531:
I Guess I Need a Smiling Yoda in My Sig..:)
I labeled the "arguing" bit but didn't mean anything by it. :P
Does YODA ever smile?? Might be hard pressed to find a "smiler".....hehehe. :)
LOCO how are you coming along with this new build??
....gm
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. October 2007 @ 23:14 |
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Well, I usually use all of the cables on modular power supplies anyway!
Seems this is as close as Yoda ever got to smiling!
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PacMan777
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10. October 2007 @ 01:31 |
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Originally posted by Lp531:
@pacman777
I absolutely prefer Single Rails...Multiple Rails are just a Marketing Gimmick that have No Real World Benefits...The Top tier P/S Manufacturers are going back to the Single Rail Theory...Remember Multiple Rails came out just to meet an Archaic Standard...that is Not Necessary...or Beneficial...
The 8-pin connector...Doesn't add anything different...they just provide better sharing (load balancing) of exisiting power rails..[b]:)[/b]
Existing rails, plural. Whether the 8 pin connector does anything or not, more mobos will be seeing them. By the way, who is going back to the single rail supplies that weren't already there?
Different strokes for different folks. I don't see an advantage to having everything draw off a single rail. It can cause fluctuations under heavy loads not seen from a multiple rail setup. If for some reason a good multiple rail starts getting too much draw on a rail, it will borrow from the others. Most of the performance builders I'm aware of, including DocTy here at AD, use multiple rail PSUs for their builds.
As for the difference in efficiency, the Corsair is 80% compared to 83% for the PC power and cooling. Negligible to the point of not being a factor. That means more when you have the system fully loaded, ... and only 3% variation. 5 year warranty as opposed to 3, modular cables compared to no modular cables, there's a difference that can be seen.
I have no idea why people think it's arguing when discussing different points of view on PC hardware and how it can be used. At no time have I felt hostile toward anyone discussing hardware. That would be childish. There's no need to put up smilies to be friendly. If you see me call someone a smacktard, then you can say I may be getting angry. LOL
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. October 2007 @ 01:46
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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10. October 2007 @ 02:12 |
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Agreed on the hostility point, at no point have I felt I was arguing with anyone, I may disagree on occasions, but I like to think I keep my discussions civilised. Unless of course some idiot comes in to spam rubbish, but that doesn't seem to happen too often in threads like these.
On the efficiency front, the corsair is simply rated at 80% isn't it?
I can't speak for the PC P&C, we'll have to take their word on that (I'm sure it's right) but the Corsair was tested at SPCR to have an efficiency of 80% at 150W, 84% at 200W and 85% from 250-400W, only dipping back to 80% at the full 620W, with an AC input power of 785W.
On the fluctuation front, it doesn't seem to have much to do with single rail/multi rail, it's more to do with the quality or design of the PSU. OCZ's old PSUs were well built multi-rail units, but had pretty disturbing voltage fluctuations. By the same token I'm sure there are some rock solid single rail units, most likely coming from PC P&C among others.
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Senior Member
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10. October 2007 @ 02:24 |
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The :) were a joke to greensman...Apparently greensman thought we were arguing...LOL...
I never thought we were arguing...just discussing different points of view...
As for P/S...off the top of my head...Look at the New top of the line Silverstones or Ultras...both have went Back to single rails...
I know there are a couple more I have seen...But I'm just to tired to remember...Its 3:20 where I'm at...So Off to Bed...
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PacMan777
AfterDawn Addict
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10. October 2007 @ 02:34 |
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Sammorris
the 80% is for broad range efficiency. You'll see others list typicl load, high load, and low load efficiencies (which vary with the same PSU) Being sales hype, the top figure always gets quoted.
Lp531, OCZ, Antec, ThermalTake, Corsair and other top brands are sticking with multiple rails. Depends on whose sales promo the buyer wants to buy into. Obviously both multiple and single rail systems work. LOL
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PacMan777
AfterDawn Addict
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10. October 2007 @ 03:19 |
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I figured it was time I look around and see what's going on with PSUs. I've not done so in a few months now. PSUs don't change very much except for adding a few connectors. Seems those building single rail units are still doing so and the multiple rail systems are still being built by the big names that were doing so before.
Here is PC Power & Cooling's logic for single rail being superior. I'll say up front I don't buy into the logic. It's flawed because other major suppliers are successfully using multiple rail PSU systems for the higher demand PC systems.
8. ARE MULTIPLE 12-VOLT RAILS BETTER THAN A SINGLE 12-VOLT RAIL?
With all the hype about multiple 12-volt rails (ads claim that two rails is better than one, five is better than four, etc.), you?d think it was a better design. Unfortunately, it?s not!
Here are the facts: A large, single 12-volt rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12-volt output from the PSU to the computer, while a multi-rail 12-volt design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply?s rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets ?trapped? on under-utilized rails. For example, if the 12-volt rail that powers the CPU is rated for 17 amps and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 10A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system.
Since the maximum current from any one 12-volt rail of a multiple-rail PSU is limited to 20 amps (240VA / 12 volts = 20 amps), PCs with high-performance components that draw over 20 amps from the same rail are subject to over-current shutdowns. With power requirements for multiple processors and graphics cards continuing to grow, the multiple-rail design, with its 240VA limit per rail, is basically obsolete.
PC Power and Cooling is once again leading the industry. All of our power supplies now feature a large, single 12-volt rail. The design is favored by major processor and graphics companies, complies with EPS12V specs (the 240VA limit is not a requirement) and is approved by all major safety agencies such as UL and TUV.
Below are some of the brands we've been mentioning. I tried to keep the models similar and close to the same output. Note Antec gave Full, Typical, and light load percentages for efficiency and Corsair said 80 across a broad range, the others said high efficency and efficiency. Leaves me wondering if we're reading from the same book all the time.
PC Power & Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V
Single Rail
High Efficiency (83%)
Active PFC
OCZ StealthXStream
4 rails
High efficiency
80% @ 115V (Typical load)
83% @ 230V (Typical load)
Active Power Factor Correction (PFC)
Corsair HX
3 rails
80% efficiency wide load range
Active PFC
Antec Neo HE 550
Three +12V output circuits
Efficiency Up to 85%
115V - Full load 76%; Typical load 82%, Light load 77.9%
230V - Full load 80%; Typical load 85%, Light load 79.45%
Active PFC
ThermalTake Toughpower 600W
Four +12V rails
high efficiency (up to 85%)
Active PFC
SilverStone ST60F 600W Modular Power Supply
Quad 12V rails
Efficiency: 75.8%
Active PFC
Ultra ULT33136 XVS Modular 600W Power Supply
Single Rail (Ultra also makes a double rail)
Efficiency: 85% at Typical Load
As I agreed before, both single rail and multiple rail systems work and can work well when built well. I use multilple rails because of the way I build my systems. I want my CPU on a separate rail from the GPU and drives. I'm noticing more multiple rail systems and I don't see any of the major players making plans to go back to single rail PSU designs.
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10. October 2007 @ 03:37 |
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The Toughpower is, however, four rails soldered together though, so it's not really a multi-rail design at all.
PC P&C's marketing spiel about multiple rails is a little misleading, it's scientifically sound, but it draws the customer to thinking that multiple rails are a terrible idea, which they're not. I'd be happy with either.
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Moderator
1 product review
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10. October 2007 @ 04:35 |
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Quote:
LOCO how are you coming along with this new build??
Don't get your panties all twisted up, I haven't even got the first piece yet. DVD drive and RAM should be here today and the case maybe tomorrow and that will probably be it for this month unless something goes on sale that is too good to pass up. I tried to get the HX520 from buy.com last night with an additional $10 off for a new google checkout account, but when I signed up the discount never applied to I said F**K it and went to bed.
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10. October 2007 @ 07:57 |
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You did actually try and pay through it using google checkout right, you didn't just sign up?
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10. October 2007 @ 09:00 |
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I signed up and then went back to my cart and clicked the checkout button for google checkout and it took me to the pay screen and everything was there except the discout. Dunno, I might try again today.
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Senior Member
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10. October 2007 @ 10:40 |
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Advanced circuitry design that automatically enables power sharing between the triple +12V rails in an event of overload on any single +12V rail.
I don't see an advantage to having everything draw off a single rail. It can cause fluctuations under heavy loads not seen from a multiple rail setup. If for some reason a good multiple rail starts getting too much draw on a rail, it will borrow from the others.
I find this statement questionable about the Corsair Unit...As have several reviewers that have looked at this unit...If you go back in the PC Building thread you will find were I discussed this and the whole single rail multiple rail situation...and posted links to articles...
If you look at Tomshardware's Ultimate Build they use a Single Rail Unit...They Switched from the PC Power & Cooling to the New (Single Rail)Ultra...simply because they wanted Modular Cables...However they Did Point out that the PC Power & Cooling P/S was a Better Unit then the Ultra...
I can see you are firmly entrenched in your camp...as I am in Mine...So I doubt either of use will change are views...I believe whole wholeheartedly in the Single Rail Concept...as you believe in the Multi Rail...
I still believe that the Multi Rail System...is Now..Simply a Marketing Gimmick...that offers No Real World Benefit...and is Now Only Used to Artificially Inflate the Output Number of a P/S...
Here is PC Power & Cooling's logic for single rail being superior. I'll say up front I don't buy into the logic. It's flawed because other major suppliers are successfully using multiple rail PSU systems for the higher demand PC systems.
I do not see how the last part of that statement is proof of a Flawed Concept...They Both Work...
Quote:
Multiple rails came about because the EU mandated that the power on a single rail should not exceed 240VA (12V x 20A). Intel then stipulated in the ATX12V v2.xx standard that if the power on a 12V rail was likely to exceed 240VA, a second 12V rail needed to be engineered. For practical purposes, a limit of 18A was used, allowing for 2A headroom. Manufacturers replied by mass-producing multiple rail power supplies, using several types of engineering. Some power supplies are well engineered, and the 12V rails are truly separated with separate transformers. However, others draw power from one single transformer and the rails are only separated after transforming takes place. The issue with multiple rails is that the power per rail is relatively low, which unfortunately often results in the use of inferior parts.
Intel officially dropped the 240VA standard in spring 2005...and re-instating single 12V rail power supply units as an accepted standard...
PSU manufacturers and there Marketing Department...or the Spin Doctors...took a grim situation...and turned it 180 degrees...and tried to turn "multiple rails" into some marketing Hype about performance...Which in my opinion it is Not...
In Both cases...If you have enough Juice on the Rail...there is No Problem...However...The Multi Rail System buy its mere design...will always be more likely to Not Have the Juice on the Rail when needed...The Muti rail is fine as long as it is engineered properly...and distributed correctly...The Single Rail Concept Eliminates this potential problem...The Single Rail will always have it on the Right Rail without an ("Advanced Circuitry" which I question) since it only has One Rail...
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. October 2007 @ 12:47
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Moderator
1 product review
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10. October 2007 @ 16:32 |
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Still no biscuits!
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PacMan777
AfterDawn Addict
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10. October 2007 @ 19:20 |
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No biscuits?
Lp531
You're right, we're not likely to agree. Like I said, they both work. I'll stick to my reasons and you'll keep yours. I've always built with multiple rail PSUs and only ran into one failure. It didnt't work out of the box. I RMed it for a new one and no problems. I've never run into a problem with not enough power on the rails and I've built some PCs intended for overclocking. As I mentioned, I'm on a PC using a hefty OC that I've been running for everyday use the past year. The PSU is a Corsair HX620. I built for the ability to upgrade. For what I have, the 520 would have sufficed.
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Senior Member
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10. October 2007 @ 19:25 |
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. October 2007 @ 19:44
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Senior Member
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10. October 2007 @ 19:46 |
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hey leo if u want to cut corners but still need a monitor then try picking up some old laptops (perhaps from a rich neighbor?) with nice screens then just clustering them up so u get some extra power and a fairly inexpensive monitor.
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4 product reviews
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10. October 2007 @ 23:29 |
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if there was ever a sentence to support my backing of the corsair, this is it, from that first article:
Quote:
In addition, it is extremely hard not to draw parallels between the Silencer 610 and the Corsair HX620 considering they are not only internally almost identical but they also have nearly the same performance. It is impossible to ignore that the Silencer 610 is priced slightly lower than the HX620 yet does not offer a modular interface, has a longer housing and is louder at high loads. Nonetheless, the price is quite reasonable for the performance it offers.
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