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The Official Graphics Card and PC gaming Thread
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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23. July 2009 @ 22:56 |
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Ok, Sam, now I understand, don't push the p4 above 75 as the highest limit. In that regard, I think I'm good. Yesterday's cpu temps were in the high 60s.
One time I was thinking about putting an Arctic cooler on it - and cloning into a huge ide drive since I had read about the dangers of losing your Sata on some mobos where the sata clock is a multiple of the fsb clock - just as happened to me when I tried going from 200 to 210.
But now that I have the Satas, I can already tell the improved speed of level loading - I don't go idle and find my bot having left the safe house any more, lol. So I can't overclock the p4. Therefore, if the p4 will support the present temps, then I'll leave it with the stock hsf. (Come to think of it, I have already sunbeam modded the cpu inlet so it's sucking cool air directly from the outside of the case - so I have already improved on the stock hsf - otherwise I bet my temps would be higher.)
Originally posted by sam:
For the tiny overclocks you're using Rich, I don't see why you don't just forget about instability and temperature issues and leave the clocks stock, the performance difference is so marginal it isn't worth the effort.
No, Sam, No No No!
Hahaha!
FIGHTING FOR EVERY FPS
You would be absolutely amazed! The performance differences ARE HUGE! When I talk about reasonably fluid gameplay - I mean getting about 31 fps MAX most of the time.
Believe me guys, I am RIGHT AT THAT BREAKING POINT between smooth gameplay and noticeable lag.
It's like moving pictures - to fool the eye of MOST PEOPLE you need at least 24 fps - isn't that the magic number? I could google it - but it's something like that. If you try 23, you can see the flicker.
That is just like me and smooth gameplay. Before this hot weather, I have been running the Catalyst recommended "Auto tune" of 702 and 936, and my gameplay has been smooth - most of the time when I look up into the upper right corner, I see 31 fps. I haven't really been feeling any lag, due to the remarkable ability of Valve to scale for my weak system. That's probably not the ultra smooth you are getting, Sam, dipping down to 60 in the rough spots. But compared to how my older games play - where I know I'm getting in the 40s and 50s - Left 4 Dead feels similarly reasonably smooth and fluid.
Remember, too, that I am using End it All to free the cpu as much as I can, and per an earlier tip of yours, Sam, I have disabled hyperthreading. I can verify by experience that no hyperthreading is best.
Regarding running stock clocks, I did in fact try that one time, by accident. Let me tell you guys how that worked out for me.
What happened is that I forgot to restart Ati Tray tool after using End it All. That left my gpu and vram clocks at stock 2D mode - 668 and 828 - which is what I have Ati tray tool set them back to when I exit 3D mode. Stock clocks are a 5% slower gpu clock and a 13% slower vram clock than 3D mode.
So I started up Left 4 Dead. All of a sudden - I hadn't been playing for more than a few minutes - I noticed the game was REALLY laggy! I asked myself, "What the hell is going on? This game is playing like total sh*t!"
Then I noticed that I didn't have any fps display in the upper right corner. I exited L4D, restarted Ati tray tool, and was GREATLY RELIEVED to come back to smooth gameplay.
So believe me, Sam, guys - the small graphics overclocks ARE HUGE!! I am fighting for every single fps. Hahaha!
YESTERDAY'S GAMING SESSION
So during yesterday's test of the new exhaust system, which Keith accurately characterized as the "mauling" of my case, (I LOVE that word - truer words were never spoken!) I didn't even try the 702 Catalyst "auto tune" gpu clock because of the scary high temps up to 101 of the stress test from the day before. I slightly throttled back 1% to 695, which had dropped the stress test temps by 7 degrees, leaving me a mere but significant 4% above stock of 668. But I DID use the "auto tune" recommended memory clock of 936, which is a bigger 13% above 828 stock.
Then I had the one crash of the day.
After the crash, which happened in the first 2 hours, I rolled the memory down by 2% to 918, leaving me still a significant 11% above stock. After that I had only one two-second scare: "Is it crashing ...." (and it wasn't even a high action spot) but the system recovered.
I DID notice one time when I was spraying zombies who were trying to break into the stairwell on hospital finale, that there was an element of lagginess - but other than that things were smooth the whole time. (But perhaps not quite as smooth as the 702 and 936 that I have gotten used to - I can tell the very slight differences.)
Believe me Sam, I am playable now - but JUST BARELY. I need every stinking fps I can get, lol!
So tell me, if I mess with a vga cooler, which I am inclined to do, in your opinion should that allow me to move back to 702 and 936? All things being equal, assuming I haven't damaged my card somehow, I SHOULD be able to at least return to those settings, right?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hey I have one funny story from yesterday that you guys might enjoy:
Originally posted by Rich telling his "funny" story:
I had been running this big fan I have in the trailer, and I wasn't even in a T-shirt. I had on a tank top which I sometimes use for jogging. But later toward evening, the weather started cooling off. I began to catch a cold, lol. So I got up from the gaming, and turned off the big fan on the other side of the trailer. Then I noticed also that a window, right next to me, where I had cranked the louvered glass wide open earlier in the day, was blowing in a gentle evening breeze, which was a little too cool in my now-cold state. But by the time I had the thought of closing the louvers, I was back in the game.
So I was in the safe house again, the team having again been all killed in hospital finale - not the strongest of teams - I have done that finale on expert a bunch of times. Hahaha. And I thought to myself, "I am going to somewhat close that window - I don't want that breeze."
But I looked around and I couldn't see the window anywhere!
I was looking around the safe house, and literally I became confused as to where the goddamn window was. Somehow, almost forcing myself, I turned my head to the left beyond the all-immersive impact of that 30" display, and I was shocked to see the trailer window in another reality to the left of my virtual reality.
I swear I wasn't on acid - Jeff it's true. Shaff, not psilocybin either, nor mescaline.
Keep in mind I sit very near the screen - in fact my keyboard is propped up on the screen legs and taped on the sides to keep from sliding down. I went over there just now - on the other side of my trailer - and I gently held a 12" ruler with the tip of my nose against the protective towel that covers the display - that's my gaming distance - one foot!
I was shocked when I couldn't find the window in the safe house and only found it by "changing realities."
THAT'S THE TOTAL IMMERSION OF THE 30" DISPLAY!!! So just how long have you been abusing psychedelics, Sam?
Rich
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24. July 2009 @ 04:36 |
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LOL Rich! I can relate in some sense.
I thought this was kinda funny. It says "Beefy Computer" on the side of the case. Look familiar to anyone ROFLMFAO!!! You guys may have noticed already. But I guess I saw inanimate objects as irrelevant, so my mind naturally gave them no attention. However, when im in certain moods, I find myself REALLY scanning the area's and looking MUCH deeper into things. Especially since ive been reaching for my artistic side. If I have one LOL! Nah, I think everyone has an artistic side. Even if only a small one.
Sorry sam, but I gotta post this one :D
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24. July 2009 @ 08:09 |
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Shaff: Nope, never has in any of the 3 boards I've had that cooler installd in, even with the P5N-E SLI's huge heatsink.
Rich: There are plenty of games I play even now that run at 30fps ish, they aren't Left 4 dead but they do exist. In such instances, the performance increase from overclocking is negligible. Seriously, the mathematics of it don't add up. Get 90fps and you overclock your GPU by 4% and you get 94fps, great but you can't tell the difference. Get 30fps and overclock your GPU by 4% and you get 31fps. 1fps does not make a blind bit of difference in these circumstances - the more your games start to lag, the less extra frames overclocking will give you, it's simple.
The 24fps rule applies to visual images. However, since the refresh rate of a monitor isn't infinite, you get problems with the synchronisation of frames. Say for instance your game runs at 25fps, that's a frame every 40ms. Your monitor will most likely be 60Hz, a frame every 16.666ms. An image only comes out of the screen when the monitor refreshes - if the image has changed from last time, great - smooth gameplay. if it hasn't, it manifests itself as a jerk , because you'll have to wait until the next refresh for the image to change, even if the PC rendered the next frame a tiny fraction of a milisecond afterwards.
Imagine the timeline - 40ms for a frame rendered, 16.66ms per monitor refresh
0: New frame on the screen
16.666: Refresh - no new image
33.333: Refresh - no new image
40: New frame rendered - no refresh yet
50: Refresh - new frame on the screen
Thus what we have here, is 25fps that has effectively dropped to 20fps. I hope that makes sense.
For this reason, the only guarantee of smooth gameplay, unless the refresh rate of a monitor was 1KHz or so, you need to meet the refresh rate of the monitor for smooth gameplay, 24fps on its own isn't enough.
Hold on, you might be thinking, isn't this what VSync does? Yes it is, it will attempt to produce 60Hz for a 60Hz refresh if it can be achieved, if not, then it will use 30 (some games use 45, this is rare). VSync has other advantages like reducing vertical mismatching in frames, called 'tearing'. However, there is a problem with Vsync, which is why I don't use it. If you play a game that will always be smooth, well above 60Hz, unless you get lots of tearing, Vsync doesn't have much of a point, since you always meet the refresh rate anyway, it's no issue. When you do have lag and Vsync could potentially compensate for it, say your frame rate varies wildly from 70 odd to 32 (a not uncommon range of frame rate in games), vsync will be chopping and changing between 30 and 60fps often, and this causes lag. It's really irritating, and for that reason I simply live with Vsync turned off.
Further to the 'you can only see 24fps' argument, the same actually applies for TV. You may not notice it at first because TV tends not to lag, but look closely and for the same reasons mentioned above, you can tell it's a problem (this is more an issue for PAL and video rips rather than NTSC real TV, as NTSC is 60 frames interlaced/30 progressive, PAL is 50 or 25). Now watch the same footage on a 100Hz TV instead. Due to the higher refresh rate, the picture from the same source looks much smoother. Then watch a 60fps progressive video (there are some out there, usually home recorded HD streams) and you'll suddenly become aware of how incredible the difference is.
Brief spurts of lag in Left 4 Dead are more related to CPU than graphics (as in game freezes for a couple of seconds) - it happens sometimes with weaker CPUs.
A new GPU cooler could possibly give you stable speeds at a higher clock - in one part of your posts I see you're getting 100ºC temps which are certainly going to cause you problems with overclocking, and then in the next part you tell me they're in the 70s, which is ample cooling - long story short, heavy overclocks don't match up well with temperatures over 75ºC. Do realise though, that the limit of stability may well be voltage-side, however, and that 702/936 will always be slightly unstable. For the record, don't overvolt your graphics card - it ALWAYS ends in tears.
Omega: The clear Dell dimension ripoffs as 'Beefy' computers are a Valve trademark, they've been in games since Counter-Strike Source. If you look closely in Half-Life 2, you can also identify that the CRT monitors are Viewsonic.
In CSS at least, not sure about left 4 dead, if you shoot the side panel, it comes off revealing a motherboard, cpu cooler etc. inside.
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24. July 2009 @ 08:52 |
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Just the other day I couldn't help but notice this
Its my mouse albeit wireless and silver and that's a Microsoft keyboard to go with it.
You've got to admire the level of detail Valve put into their games.
EDIT: oh no the curse of Imageshack has struck again the odd image is refusing to load..
I could put something funny here but I cant be arsed. Now GO AWAY! This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. July 2009 @ 08:58
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24. July 2009 @ 09:04 |
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I can see the image fine. Also note the Asus cd rom drive...
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24. July 2009 @ 09:13 |
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lol that's because I edited it with a re-uploaded image.
Damn I actually have enough for that PSU but I'm gonna end up spending all my pennies on holiday - hence I won't be posting for a week starting tomorrow. Whitby (what's wrong with staying in the UK for your holiday?) here I come!!!
I could put something funny here but I cant be arsed. Now GO AWAY!
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24. July 2009 @ 15:36 |
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Hi there peeps, hows do i know if the 2 gtxs i got are in sli in windows vista x64 i have checked the nvidia control panel and there id no sli option for sli?
thanks
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24. July 2009 @ 15:52 |
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You can't sli an 8600 with an 8800.
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24. July 2009 @ 16:06 |
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he knows that, he has 2 GTX 260s. as seen on last page.
umm on the control panel, is there not an toption somewhere for SLI? if nto check GPU-Z to see if its enabled. best way would be to check a game, and take a card out and see if the frame rate drops.
MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|. |
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24. July 2009 @ 16:13 |
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Remember I respond to 20 threads or so a day if not more, so I tend to go by what's in people's sigs for reference, if they're not up to date then that's an issue :P
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24. July 2009 @ 16:24 |
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i found what it was and it is that scan computer got me on three site they said that board that i got witch P5E3 Premium did sli but infact it is the X48 chipset and it only dose crossfire ha ha. partly my fault but more their fualt because they said that it did indeed do SLI and dosnt. lol so will be going back to scan tomorrow and will be ripping somones head off ha ha. another thing is that the board has also gone missing from there web site now witch i think i might of got the last one in. owell not the end of the world. was looking forwards to finding out how ddr3 proformed not tonite ha ha. thanks for all the help!!!!
EDIT: will do my sig just for you sam!
EDIT SECOND TTIME ROUND: done my sig for sam ha ha
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. July 2009 @ 17:01
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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24. July 2009 @ 18:02 |
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Haha. Kevin, you're a genius. First off, I never ever saw that computer anywhere in the game. So right away you're ahead about a mile. I blew my Internet Explorer browser up to 400% and could just read the Beefy Computer on the side - very nice.
Now, where is that goddamm computer??? I'm gonna guess Dead Air - 4th chapter, in the suite of offices. Am I right?
(I also see you were out of shotgun rounds - you like to go around blasting stuff don't you, lol!)
Sam - speaking of blasting stuff. You have actually shot the side panels off of in-game computers, to expose the inner workings! Haha. That's hysterical! Watch - that's the next thing Kevin will do.
Nice picture, Keith. Yes, definitely a wireless mouse! Hahaha. By the way, all day Wednesday I was on my new wireless that Logitech sent me to replace the defective "random fire" v220 - bottom usb slot just for good luck - and it worked flawlessly!
Hey Nav, thanks for faking Sam out with that out of date sig, lol. Man - they sold you a non-sli board - well those bums sure faked you out - they better swap it out for you!
Wow, Sam, your fps rate explanation was highly technical - but I think I followed it reasonably well. Very interesting. I also never run vertical sync. I recall that the Ati Tray tools advanced advice does not recommend it - I may also have tried it once without good results.
Your interesting discussion ties in with what I have been seeing from some of the new HDTVs that claim improved quality of motion from double the refresh rates - especially on sports. I think Samsung is pushing double the refresh rate - and now from your discussion I will certainly give that feature added consideration on my next HDTV purchase - Jeff - are you listening?
Getting back to gameplay, I guess I have to fall back on the "feel" of the game - when people say "it feels laggy" and you get the sense of the game running a little behind your mouse movements. From that standpoint - I guess I'm not really talking about movement - well yes I am, but not just the visual look of the game.
I'm talking about the game lagging a bit behind my mouse movement. So what kind of lag is that? That's basically slow processing - right?
My magic Catalyst Auto-tune recommended settings of 702/936 result in reasonably smooth gameplay, largely absent that "feel" of lagginess. Two days ago, having been quite scared of the 101 stress test temps - even with the new exhaust - I dropped to 695/936 - which had resulted in 6 degree cooler gpu temps that never exceeded 95 degrees on the stress test.
Real world, running Left 4 Dead all day Wednesday, my gpu temp was 77-78, and my cpu temp was 67-68.
But I still crashed once, within the first two hours, so I dropped vram clock to 918, and no more crashes.
So my new stable clocks seem to be 695/918.
I can "feel" the difference, however, from not being at 702/936. It's a very subtle difference of slightly more action spots where the game gets a tiny bit laggy.
So, if I am following you, you're saying that 702/936, even with low temps from a new added cooler, might be inherently unstable - as it may be more of a voltage issue. I assure you I won't mess with voltages.
I used to run at much higher clocks - slightly higher memory of 945, but quite a bit higher gpu clocks of 725, and even up to 745 if I recall. Those clocks had proven to be stable under the Ati Tray Tool testing and had not produced any artifacts on the renderer. But when I ran those higher clocks playing Call of Duty 4 multiplayer on my 1440x900 19" screen, occasionally after several hours, I would crash.
Finally several months ago, I investigated Catalyst and auto-tune and was surprised by two things:
1. I noticed that Catalyst wouldn't even let me set a gpu clock above 720 - conservative compared to what I had been running, although their recommended max memory clock of 936 was pretty close to the 945 I had been running. 2. I was surprised that the max recommended auto-tune gpu clock was "only" 702.
So I guess my conclusion is: at one time I was running - for hours at a time - clocks quite a bit higher than 702 - I was driving fewer pixels however. But (you tell me) possibly that says it isn't a voltage issue. I don't know.
So, I am going to pick up one of the ebay coolers, either the vf900 or vf1000 (which I know without a doubt will fit in my narrow case) and see if I can get back to my auto-tune recommended clocks of 702/936.
Rich
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24. July 2009 @ 18:11 |
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Death toll. Its in the upstairs area, just before lowering the forklift. I was playing advanced. I do tend to use a lot of shotgun shells LOL!
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24. July 2009 @ 19:13 |
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Haha you guys missed something. When you shoot the PCs you can see their innards. Every shootable PC in the game has an ATi card and I've even found one with Crossfire :P
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388 |
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24. July 2009 @ 19:15 |
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I have too actually, I forget where I found it :P
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24. July 2009 @ 19:15 |
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Originally posted by Estuansis:
Haha you guys missed something. When you shoot the PCs you can see their innards. Every shootable PC in the game has an ATi card and I've even found one with Crossfire :P
LOL jeff. It seems like I did see the inner workings at one time, but I might simply be imagining it LOL! I will sure be looking closer at things now LOL! :D
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24. July 2009 @ 19:20 |
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Haha well you know me. I'm very detail oriented. It's all the cool little stuff like that that draws me into a game. Kinda like rainbows and water refraction in Crysis. Extra attention to detail is always a bonus in any game.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
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24. July 2009 @ 19:26 |
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navskin: As sad as it is you got a board that won't do SLI, you got a much better board for it. Sli boards for 775 are crap, universally dire. If I were you I'd sell the second card and keep the board.
Rich: Running out of shotgun rounds is too easily done :P
I saw a 100Hz TV in person for the first time last month, it was absolutely incredible, it's on my 'must have specs' list when buying a new Tv.
Jeff: Exactly, I like little details like that too - always makes me feel more immersed in a game.
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25. July 2009 @ 08:09 |
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well i am stick with i got just because it ant good enuff for you sam dosent mean that it ant good enuff for me. any i got an ASUS Extreme Striker 2 motherboard now. And whats wrong with socket 775 i am runnning 6 gigs of ddr3 1600mhz witch ant to bad i think. gonna be running the 2 x 260 in sli will do banchmarks and post later do you think that the ddr3 will help my pc compared to ddr2?
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25. July 2009 @ 08:32 |
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hoenstly, DDR3 is not any help in gaming, but is with benchmarking. not neccassarily 3dmark, but overlclockers benches.
also good luck with the build, each to their own, what ever works for you, be happy with it.
i personally cant use other boards than ASUS' ROG series, after beign spolit by the BIOS, sam cant use any asus baords after they all failed on him, etc etc etc, so what ever works for you, be happy, dont let anyone tell you otherwise lol, (unless u choose a crap PSU, then we will bite your head off :P)
my mate in the UAE has a 780i baord, with tri sli GTX 260s and a 4.1 GHZ Q9550. has it for abotu 4 months now, no problems, so obviously not every nvidia board is bad :)
MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2009 @ 08:36
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25. July 2009 @ 08:34 |
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double post, mods please kill :)
MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2009 @ 08:36
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25. July 2009 @ 09:22 |
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well i ant getting qny luck it lookl ike that this new board of mine has a bad bios going to try updating it now and see it that fixes the problem that i am having with the lans both of them. it say that i have a bad lan cable tryed 3 diffrent cables tho.
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25. July 2009 @ 09:37 |
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well i ant getting qny luck it lookl ike that this new board of mine has a bad bios going to try updating it now and see it that fixes the problem that i am having with the lans both of them. it say that i have a bad lan cable tryed 3 diffrent cables tho.
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25. July 2009 @ 18:19 |
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It's a striker, of course it's faulty, all strikers are - hence why I told you not to change it. (For reference the total failure point for nvidia chipsets is typically 9-12 months, 4 is too early to say).
You basically have three options:
1. Replace the motherboard every few weeks to every few months
2. Sell the 260s and buy a GTX295 SinglePCB, and get an Intel chipset board
3. Sell the Core 2 Quad and invest in an i7 so you can use SLI with an intel chipset.
The most practical of these is probably option 2.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2009 @ 18:22
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25. July 2009 @ 20:58 |
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Sam thanks for the sound peace of advice but i fixed it the reflash did the job fine. So i have installed windows vista x64 all up and running with sp2, and it is running like SH** off a shovel. the rog board is so good theres to many options in the bios from me to choose dont know what i will do next. ha ha asus has pulled one from nowhere with this one. Dose anyone know of anygame that run in native x64 because all the games i have installed are running in 32 bit and i want to see if there is an advatage to x64 like a little bit of an experiment.
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