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Nvideas rsx pipelines vs 360 ATI pipelines 360 core vs ps3 cell
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GMScribe
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7. August 2006 @ 09:23 |
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Sos, i found it in google :P
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Senior Member
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7. August 2006 @ 09:36 |
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So you signed up just for this?
Huh well welcome to afterdawn I hope you enjoy your stay.We have had alot of crazy fanboy fights resulting in people getting banned from the site.It's sad I know but people just can't control themselves enough to act civilized.Feel free to look around we could use someone with your knowledge.Bye now.
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7. August 2006 @ 10:24 |
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As long as things go smoothly I'll leave this one open.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 |
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7. August 2006 @ 10:37 |
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ok thx for replying neph.
@GMScribe Yeah that post was really good.The 360 has 3 pipes holy crap I didn't know that.I'm pretty sure my powercolor ati x800 gt is based on the R420 but I could be wrong.I'll have to check on that in a minute.
So in your opinion which is better the rsx and cell combo or the tri-core and ati combo?
I think the rsx and cell are better.The cell doesn't even need a gfx card to do the graphics tasks, but sony put it in because the cell is harder to program for or so I heard.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. August 2006 @ 10:39
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GMScribe
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7. August 2006 @ 12:44 |
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Honestly, i couldn't say for sure, as the RSX specs could vary greatly. Sony may have added more features, or removed them to save power and heat production. This is partly why ATI used a much simpler, generalised(unified) design for the 360, as traditionally their cards are very power hungry. The problem with the RSX will be that even though nVidia have better techniques at reducing heat than ATI on the manufacture level, they are still using dedicated pipelines and shading units, which whilst very powerful, produce a lot of heat by having separate components for everything. In fact I remember sony stating that they were unhappy with the heat levels from the RSX. Hopefully they just helped nVidia perfect the manufacturing process rather than cut down on features.
I personally think, that the RSX and CELL combo will prove to be the best, not just because of power (which i believe will be a very close call) but because of the flexibility. The CELL can do anything to a video stream with no effort, it can be used in the name of science, either in cool games or as a none gaming use for the ps3(imagine if SETI ran their screensaver program on every ps3 that will eventually be in the world. The RSX will be supported by the open standard open-gl, allowing for interesting advances in graphics, without the hidden walls of directX. Also, assuming the ps3 will support linux, it will supply animators / developers, in particular, students, with very powerful hardware for very cheap and promote use and developement of open standards, which need more interest to stay ahead of APIs like directX. Also by not having a limited 10mb frame buffer, it does at least give you more choises of AA methods etc.
The 360 is a good console, but i think the balance is not done well. The unified shaders are good to the extent, you can just throw anything at it and get top performance wether vertex or pixel heavy. However, at the moment, they sacrafise overall raw performance to be implemented, so now is not the time for them. The cpu is basically 3x the PPU core of the ps3. My problem with this is that it is a powerPC core. The powerPC core can not order its own instructions, making it very weak at pipelining operations (slow at excecuting a single thread), and its only use is for branch prediciton (IF statements), though it does make up for this partly by excecuting two threads at once, but not nearly enough.
This can be good for AI and physics, however, most of physics and AI also requires powerfull and fast vector/matrix operations. the VMX extentions help but aren't super efficient and don't accept microcode (where a highlevel command direct represents a lowlevel command), which leads to more instructions to accomplish the same task. With the CELL, the PPU has all these flaws, thankfully though, general operations(IFs, Loops, etc) require a very small ammount of modern cpu time, so it does not suffer from having only one core. That is provided you can offload onto the SPEs. Thankfully you can write AI and physics code that doesn't use much branch prediction but is just as fast. This is where coding for the CPU is hard. Developers with engines and techniques that use branch prediction must adapt. So the older ones are moaning :P
Actually programing for the SPEs is a quite simple concept to grasp, the only problem was a poor compiler and SDK at first, which since has become much better, if you want to have a look, go to IBMs website and download it, it requires fedora core 5 to run. I've been reading the programming guide for the CELL a bit, and on a C / C++ level it's very simple. You can imagine SPE operations as seperate programs(they are compiled on their own). The PPU issues them and then handles a bit of general code, meanwhile the SPUs run the programs. You can then time the loading / interaction of programs for best interaction because they always run for predictable time limits (there is a program to tell you how long they run for) becasue they don't use branch prediction (yup, that's the reason why). You then have to learn something like 10 new commands to use to define where you want operations to end up, main memory, spe memory, etc.
There you have it :P a mouthfull, but there it is lol. I would comment on features of the RSX but i really don't know what they'll be, except that its shaders are coded in the nVidia Cg language which is just like C with a few graphics specific functions, so is really easy to code for and the Cg compiler will automatically optimise your shaders for you. You can download the latest beta (the version the ps3 uses) off nVidia's website.
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Senior Member
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8. August 2006 @ 07:20 |
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Wow thanks for that great insight.
Yes lets hope they don't take out features of the rsx and just improve the stability without dropping performance.I have an xbox 360 and despite the external psu it's EXTREMELY HOT! It's a notorious over heater so lets hope sony/ibm/nvidia can do a little better.
That's what I keep hearing is that the cell is simple but game developers who are used to programming on other consoles and pc games have found it a be a real pain and it takes longer which means they cost more to develope(because the longer it takes by the hour the more company has to dole out in work wages)so sony put in the rsx for it's more simple language and what people were used to.It wasn't the only benefit of the rsx though of coarse.
It would be a shame to see developers not taking advantage of the cell.My step dad is a programmer and he says half the people at his job don't have very good skills despite there huge pay check.They mess up lines in the code and then my dad has to go over them because of their ignorance.I think it's these same types that can't grasp the cell.As for me I don't know much code myself.
I'm not sure what type of linux distro they will use but I hope it's not to washed down.Sony has said they want to make it easier for homebrew etc so hopefully that tells us it will be nearly a full version.I think that linux would be great and open the door for many new possibilities in gaming and entertainment.
I hear the processor in the xbox 360 isn't used as much as people might think.Hade posted a pretty decent link not long ago about the cell being tested by scientists.Here it is...
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sabl/2006/Jul/06.html
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. August 2006 @ 07:21
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Senior Member
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12. August 2006 @ 13:54 |
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well i support Nvidia and by the way there r more cell in ps3 than 360s core
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rabbity
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13. August 2006 @ 05:14 |
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GMScribe good post
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KoOkOo67
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20. August 2006 @ 19:06 |
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Quote:
Request for a closure.
Why was this thread brought back after no one posted since may 11th?
No offence guys but this will only make neph's life harder and result in another "which is better 360 or ps3" thread.We have discussed the specs in depth a zillion times.Get what you want based on facts.
The end.
Lol if you have spent countless hours researching and posting on a thread, and someone said something like this, they would be pretty darn p**sed off. I'm not gonna bash or anything but jeese man, keep it to yourself.
And its my thread .
Lot's of stuff said while i was gone that i did'nt even know about thanxx you guys about this information.
and nice post XD
=)
>_<
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. August 2006 @ 22:18
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rabbity
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22. August 2006 @ 11:18 |
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hey kookoo its been a while. yeah i really hope this thread starts up again when the ps3 is released.
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KoOkOo67
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26. August 2006 @ 08:54 |
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hey, yea its been a while.
Quote:
A note on the 360 CPU, it can do 6 threads, though most games in first gen ps3 and 360 will only use the traditional 1 thread, so for the first year or so, potential will not be fully realised on the 360 cpu, however, having only one general purpose unit on the CELL, this isn't so much of a difference.
However the performance is limited on 360 CPU in hidden ways. Firstly, the fact that the 360 only has a 9GB storage. To fit more content in games, textures are compressed. This generally requires one of the 6 threads dedicated to realtime decoding, leaving only 5. Also, the 360 doesnt have an nForce DD5.1 encoding chip. So one thread must be dedicated to that for most games. Leaving 4 threads in a fully functional game.
O.o, I wish Truthman was here to read that, lol i did'nt know that back then.
>_<
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oofRome
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27. August 2006 @ 19:47 |
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so you're telling me that the 2 of the 360's threads are dedicated to decoding and encoding, even though almost all 360 games are still only using 1 thread to do everything? Doesn't that like... make absolutely NO sense?
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27. August 2006 @ 23:47 |
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guys let's not be shitting here,we know from history,that generally nividia's cards perform better than ati,well that's my experience anyway...and we know the ps3 is more powerfull,so i'm not saying it will be,so 360 fanboys don't crush me here,but theoreticlly,the ps3's gpu should outperform the 360's...
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Senior Member
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28. August 2006 @ 00:30 |
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It does make sense stop criticising, I agree skater the PS3 is definitley more powerful than the Xbox 360. :0
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GMScribe
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28. August 2006 @ 01:11 |
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Quote:
so you're telling me that the 2 of the 360's threads are dedicated to decoding and encoding, even though almost all 360 games are still only using 1 thread to do everything? Doesn't that like... make absolutely NO sense?
This is NOT true. Whilst the decision is that of the game makers just to how much cpu is dedicated for these operations, in general, a dedicated thread IS required for them to work well.
When you hear that most games use only one thread, this is true, the game engines use ONLY one thread, however, these operations run outside the game engines as assists, and infact allows the 360 to make use of these extra threads.
So when you play an average 360 game, your game will be running off one thread, however when that game requests a texture or wishes to encode in dolby digital, this will impact the engine very little as these support threads are in place.
With the newer games that run heavey multicore, Dead Rising for example, i'm told uses two cores for the game engine, and possibly the other core for these support operations. I don't know with GoW, except that it is multicore.
I'm not saying it's a RULE that these threads have to be used, but as far as i know, it's the only way to give a fully imerrsive enviroment as regards rapidly changing textures and full surround sound.
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GMScribe
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28. August 2006 @ 01:29 |
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Some other info that may help with this discussion:
Xenon runs Xenon specific modified(tuned) DirectX9.0c so for performance purposes could be labeled DirectX 9.5. I heard someone talking about the Xenon being a mix of DX9 and DX10, and thought I would make clear the software being ran. A modified DirectX 9.0c.
There has been debate about the Xenon running DirectX10 as it supports many of the features, however, just to clear the air, the Xenon graphical API is complete and makes full use of the card. It can not and will not run directX10 in the future. Some(very few) of the directX10 features may be implemented on the Xenon from directX games only if they have a directX9 running mode + 360 specific coding modifications for the directX 10 features.
Another thing I find quite funny, is running the MultiCore Dead Rising is actually causing some 360s to overheat. The truth is that the PowerPC chip is the hottest component in the 360 with a huge heatsink and once you start using all or more of the cores, it really does struggle to keep cool.
Also a little note on the Xenon vs G70, whilst it's true you CAN get more shader passes from having a less pipelined architecture, the complexity of many modern shaders is very large, and often multi pixel in calculation (especially for smoothening features) and so in general, though there are of course exceptions, the G70 doesn't need as many shader passes to complete the same operations as the Xenon, usually balancing out the odds, a good example would be photon mapping. I believe in a Microsoft paper, they compared the power of the Xenon to the Geforce 7800GTX(same or just weaker than the 7900GT) for a realistic estimate for coders who hadn't dev kits yet.
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28. August 2006 @ 23:10 |
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shit that's bad...i was afraid of this,i already knew the 360 wasn't using all it's power in the beggining,and it's overheatin,and now it's using more power and really overheating,i bet you soon,say next year(end of 2007),all this multi thread games are going to cuz a wave of 360's to burn out becuz the 360 is bad with heat...lol,glad i got my 3 year warranty...
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AE27
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29. August 2006 @ 08:48 |
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Dont let the door hit you on the way out, beacause I dont want ass prints on my new door!
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GMScribe
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29. August 2006 @ 10:39 |
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Read it lol, I wouldn't be worried about 50mhz, clock means little in nVidia architectures
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KoOkOo67
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31. August 2006 @ 09:27 |
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Yea, 50mhz is barely noticable.
I can't ait untill i get my ps3, i just bought a 40" samsung HDTV LCD tv wit a 1000watt home theater system from panasonic... o.O
Would be like a crystal clear image ... !!!!!!
>_<
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oofRome
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31. August 2006 @ 10:15 |
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Well if it were true, it certainly throws off all those theoretical peak performance numbers this thread was so heavy with in the first 6 pages... :-X
Not that THOSE matter. Right? Someone?
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GMScribe
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31. August 2006 @ 11:05 |
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A little, of course, but the RSX was never a super special card in the first place, what it is, is a card that benefits hugegy from the vertex/geometry power of the CELL.
Togther it gives you the image quality of the 360 and the scale of much larger worlds. This is very important because usually games tradeoff between size and quality, this time it's going to be a bit of both.
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oofRome
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31. August 2006 @ 13:09 |
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Quote:
but the RSX was never a super special card in the first place, what it is, is a card that benefits hugegy from the vertex/geometry power of the CELL.
Indeed.
A stance that, I would like to point out, I shared way back on page 1.
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1. September 2006 @ 18:35 |
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another thing u ahve to look at is this,come november,it will be evident(fight night round 3,many more aswell) the 360 compresses teh games to fit it onto the DVD9 disk,the ps3 does not have to compress ANYTHING! which means quite surelly that the visuals on the ps3 will outperform the 360 and it's that simple,this will ofcourse expand further,because of teh cpu of teh ps3 been more powerfull,theoriticly atleast,games will load faster,more npc's on screen with more goals of each npc,teh point is,the ps3 core can handle more than the 360's,the gpu utilizes this even more and then still to top it off,you gonna have uncompressed graphics running in 1080p,just at 720p,you'd be able to see a big diffrence,just wait till november,you'll see why ur ps3 cost almost twice as much...
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eXistenZ1
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2. September 2006 @ 10:43 |
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what a load of bollocks.....you another sony fanboy who can't spell the word "THE"?
i've said before "you pay your money, you make your choice"
i personally think that a lot of sony fans are going to be very disappointed.
remember what happened with the "Emotion Engine"?
all the false promises?
all the propaganda?
i lost faith in sony about a year after the ps2's release.
remember the chinese government banning it because it could be used as a supercomputer. pfft....a nice bit of PR for you.
good luck to them..but if they can't keep their promisesthis time they are going to fall flat on their face.
that said, MGS 4 looks extremely good.
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