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:: DVD rebuilder & return of the king... dissapointing results...
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Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 09:37 |
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ddlooping...
If you are noticing any kind of audible noise, it is highly unlikely that RB-CCE had anything to do with it.
The first thing I would check is to confirm that I had 80 conductor IDE cables, and not the old 40's. While the 40's do work, the extra wires were added to reduce inductance noise. This could be the "mosquito-noise" you are talking about.
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 11:03 |
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64026402
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 11:08 |
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I have yet to notice this issue in all my backups.
Only noise that was in the original came through which of course is dampened by lack of detail when smoothing with shrink.
This is what I had noticed in you comparisons.
This must be your preference. I personally like the detail.
Donald
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64026402
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 11:18 |
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I figure the noise your talking about is banding if your encoding with the wrong settings if the links are accurately describing what your getting at.
Rebuilder is set smooth enough to start with that this shouldn't be a problem.
I have been bumping the setting with no banding at all.
Donald
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 11:19 |
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Donald, I haven't made up CCE "mosquito noise" issue, it's simply what I and others see.
I will try and raise the quality_prec as you and others recommended.
I guess it is also highly dependent on the viewing equipment used.
I'm not trying to re-launch a DVD Shrink vs CCE debate, I'm simply trying to find out how to optimise CCE settings so as to get rid off the noise I'm seeing while avoiding smoothing. ;)
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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22. August 2004 @ 11:21 |
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Double "D"
Perhaps you could copy and paste those well documented statements into a post for us to read here. I followed your links and the first one was referring to SVCD and mosquito noise, CCE does enode into VCD formats. In all of the links that I read they were using CCE 2.5 and although it wasn't mentioned I think that they were referring to CCE SP which is patched or cracked version and not reliable.
Example:
This recommendation comes from the SVCD area where you are operating at very low bitrates where avoiding mosquito noise is more important than a little color banding. For DVD bitrates above approx. 3000 kbps, definitely use a higher IQP.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2004 @ 11:25
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64026402
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 11:21 |
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There is no debate except for in the shrink corner.
Since rebuilder is actually encoding then settings such as this become a concern. If you are unhappy with the settings then change them.
Donald
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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22. August 2004 @ 11:28 |
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Double "D"
Quote:
Donald, I haven't made up CCE "mosquito noise" issue, it's simply what I and others see.
Perhaps not but you are using the information rather loosely which in effect renders it invalid.:)
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 11:48 |
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"Mosquito noise" was a new one for me. Perhaps this is because I never dealt with the compressions required for SVCD's. I did do some research, and for those who might read this, mosquito noise is defined as follows:
"Distortion concentrated at the edges of objects, and further characterized by its temporal and spatial characteristics. Sometimes associated with movement, characteriized by moving artifacts and/or blotchy noise patterns."
One example is a sprial pattern appearing at the edge of lettering or sharp objects. A detailed technical discussion can be found at http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/docs/MosquitoNoise2000.pdf
I have conducted numerous tests with ROTK, and I have yet to witness this particular mosquito effect with RB-CCE (default settings), or any other DVD transcoder for that matter.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2004 @ 11:55
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 12:12 |
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Donald, I'll say it for the last time:
This has nothing to do with DVD Shrink.
There is no DVD Shrink corner, camp, gang, posse, conspiracy,... involved.
I'm merely stating the fact I see what has been refered to as "mosquito noise" on the LOTR-ROTK CCE backups I made, and asking you and other DVD-RB/CCE users what settings are recommended to lower this effect while conserving as good a quality as possible.
Sophocles...
Quote:
originally written by wmansir, moderator at the Doom9 forums, author of several DVD-RB/CCE guides, FAQ etc etc.
I find the default setting is good for most movies. Of course it depends on the type of video, the bitrate, and who's watching it. If your bitrate is high enough you shouldn't have to worry about it. When it get's too low for a perticular source it really becomes a choice of which type of artifact do you hate most: mosquito noise or blocking/banding? Before it get's to that point I usually try light filtering though.
Quote:
originally posted by Joergen, senior member st the Doom9 forums, an DVD-RB aficionados.
Joergen
Senior Member
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: the dvd-rb has you
But usually to me (and as proven by many people when transcoding was new), a good 80%+ encoding with a transcoder looks better than the same with CCE. It looks more original, and lacks the additional mosquito noise added by a full encoding
Quote:
originally written by RB, moderator at the Doom9 forums and amongst other things, CCE expert.
This recommendation comes from the SVCD area where you are operating at very low bitrates where avoiding mosquito noise is more important than a little color banding. For DVD bitrates above approx. 3000 kbps, definitely use a higher IQP.
He does not say "mosquito noise" is not an issue for DVD (as opposed to SVCD), he says it is "not as important".
So that you get-off my back regarding DVD Shrink vs. CCE, I can tell you the results of my latest tests.
This afternoon, while at work, I made a backup of "Terminator 2" with DVD-RB/CCE.
I compared it to the DVD Shrink backup (59.2%) I made of the same title a couple of days ago (for comparison purposes).
In a few scenes, DVD-RB did yeld noticeably better results than Shrink "Sharp", and would in this case be my backup-tool of choice.
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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22. August 2004 @ 12:29 |
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Double "D"
I'm not on your back, you bring these things on yourself. I did look at three of your comparisons and if I had more time (Getting ready for a concert) I'd give you my opinions. I'm absolutely certain that I picked which was DVD Shrink and which Was CCE and I based it on overall picture clarity. You still missed one major point in your response,the version of CCE (CCE 2.5 SP)they all used for their results.:) You will note the use of smilies.
Quote:
He does not say "mosquito noise" is not an issue for DVD (as opposed to SVCD), he says it is "not as important".
He doesn't say it is either.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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22. August 2004 @ 12:35 |
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Double "D"
This is why I didn't want to get this started again. It's pointless we aren't going to change and perhaps neither will you. Let's stay friends and use what we know to help others. We have more to agree on than not and I will still direct new users to Shrink first. I'd hoped that you wouldn't see these two things (shrink, CCE)as being incompatible and perhaps joins us and we'll do the same with you.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 12:43 |
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Quote:
I'd hoped that you wouldn't see these two things (shrink, CCE)as being incompatible and perhaps joins us and we'll do the same with you.
I have never said nor thought these two backup methods were incompatible.
I told you I used CCE for my > 80% backups in the past.
In my last post, didn't I mention CCE would be my backup-tool of choice for Terminator 2? ;)
Just so you're not suprise by my next post, it will contain examples of mosquito noise from my DVD-RB/CCE 2.6x Basic backup of LOTR-ROTK.
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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22. August 2004 @ 12:54 |
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Double "D"
Chill a bit, I'm not your enemy and I did read what you posted clearly. I'm glad that you've found a reason to include CCE in your arsenal. I'm curious, on all of your examples the bit rate of CCE was about 17 to 20% higher than DVD Shrink. DVD shrink didn't vary at all it stayed at a steady 7500000 b/s while CCE fluctuated between 9000000 b/s and 9800000 b/s. What do you make of that and how it affected the outcome?
Off to a rock condert, CSN is playing. The tickets were almost $90 each, whatever happened to those $7 tickets? Must be getting old. LOL
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2004 @ 12:55
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 13:06 |
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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22. August 2004 @ 13:15 |
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Hopefully I can clarify things a little. In case anyone doesn't believe it's true, there is an issue with CCE sometimes giving mosquito noise in some cases. From what I understand, a simplified explanation (for at least most cases) is that CCE is trying to create detail that isn't present in the source, and therefore that detail is actually noise. I'm a little surprised that it would occur with the level of compression required for ROTK, so I'll have to take a look at ddlooping's results to see if I can figure it out. Once I look at it I'll post any further thoughts that come to mind. Perhaps it's actually a case of trying to create detail that it doesn't have the bitrate for, and therefore ending up with sharp detail in areas that are generally smooth. As I said, however, I'll take a look and let you know what I think.
Edit: @ddlooping
I looked at the link you posted to the stills from the original and the CCE encoded version. I don't want to comment yet because the resolution of the stills isn't the original resolution so I'd like to take a look at the clip if possible. Is it the one from the "Shrink 3.2 Sharp" test?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2004 @ 13:24
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 13:18 |
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Thanks, vurbal, looking forward to your observations.
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64026402
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 13:19 |
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ddlooping
It's not really a choice in your case. You are a part of the shrink camp. It's not a bad thing but it does color your statements.
The threads you quoted were talking about appropriate settings for preferences not any defect in Rebuilder or CCE.
Your Idea of artifacts so far have been sharper pictures that weren't smoothed like shrink.
You have to know these are semantics. You like shrink output better. I like CCE.
Just be happy shrink is a top quality transcoder now.
CCE isn't going to get a bad rap because of your opinions. Let it go. We, the actual users of Rebuilder/CCE know what we like. I isn't smoothing unless it includes a bannana and some icecream.{:)
Donald
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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22. August 2004 @ 13:25 |
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@ddlooping
I edited my post after you had responded, so in case you didn't see this I'll post it again. I looked at the link you posted to the stills from the original and the CCE encoded version. I don't want to comment yet because the resolution of the stills isn't the original resolution so I'd like to take a look at the clip if possible. Is it the one from the "Shrink 3.2 Sharp" test?
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 13:40 |
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Quote:
Your Idea of artifacts so far have been sharper pictures that weren't smoothed like shrink.
That's your opinion, not mine.
You either have not compared the CCE backup of LOTR-ROTK with the original, or your viewing equipment needs calibrating.
Quote:
Perhaps it's actually a case of trying to create detail that it doesn't have the bitrate for, and therefore ending up with sharp detail in areas that are generally smooth. As I said, however, I'll take a look and let you know what I think.
Let's wait for vurbal views on the matter.
Or is he part of the DVD Shrink camp too?
@vurbal,
The frame-captures were zoomed at 200% and had their white-level boosted.
It is from my v3.2 "Maximum Sharpness" tests:
http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/32maxsharp_DVDRB_7.zip
http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/original_charge.zip
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2004 @ 13:42
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64026402
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 13:48 |
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I have examined the noise you speak of. I noticed a distortion around the spears and flag in both pitures.
The distortion was increased on the compressed picture.
The distortion was even more pronounced on shrink from the same compilation in sharp.
Obviously you can't have perfection when compressed but the CCE was better.
I have no doubt that shrink smoothing can cover some of this up but I'm not inerested in coverup.
Donald
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 14:15 |
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Donald, the reason why you make this a "DVD Shrink vs CCE issue" escapes me.
You prefer the CCE backup. Fine.
You do not see the noise induced by CCE. Fine.
You do see it but you also see even more noise generated by DVD Shrink. Fine.
(I don't: http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/tests/mosquito_noise.html)
You think DVD Shrink "covers-up" its shortcomings by smoothing the video stream. Fine.
You do not want to help me find the optimum settings for CCE. Fine.
Now, please let others who are willing to help do so, and stop labelling me, assuming all I say or do is towards proving DVD Shrink is better than CCE, and argumenting about the virtues of CCE over Shrink.
*ddlooping from the DVD Shrink camp, to 64026402 in its DVD-RB/CCE ivory tower*
_
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2004 @ 14:21
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64026402
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 14:18 |
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You are the one that asked why shrink didn't show this distortion. The issue was made already.
For the record yesterday I had ran ROTK full disc with 20 quality_prec. It did smooth the distortion that was in shrink,cce and the original in this scene.
My preference would still be the sharper image. Did you do the same DD? You had indicated you would try the setting.
Donald
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64026402
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 14:25 |
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I had to motgage the tower to go live in the hood. {:)
I never said that cce made an original copy. I just believe that it can't be beat in the compression arena. I don't think a transcoder of any kind will. It is not just Shrink. Although it's close in many instances.
Donald
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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22. August 2004 @ 14:27 |
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No I haven't tried yet, Donald, I spent the afternoon at work, while DVD-RB/CCE was making a backup of Terminator 2.
If yesterday you made a backup of LOTR-ROTK with 20 quality_prec, and it ended up being cleaner than my trial at 16, why the f***k didn't you say so in the first place, instead of claiming DVD-RB had nothing to do with the "mosquito noise" I was experiencing and that it was due to my IDE cables?????
Then going on saying you had never experienced this noise???
That's all I was hoping for when I raised the subject, a suggestion as to what setting to try!!
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