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:: DVD rebuilder & return of the king... dissapointing results...
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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23. August 2004 @ 16:35 |
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vurbal, thank you very much for your help. :)
I'm now able to test different settings and filters on any part of a title, in minutes.
Much better than having to wait 6-7 hours for a complete backup. :D
Doc, don't you think it was worth the effort? :P
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. August 2004 @ 16:35
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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23. August 2004 @ 16:50 |
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OK, everyone, let's get along. If you guys didn't have each other you'd all be bored to tears. You in effect keep each on other sharp, current, and on your toes.
Vurbal
Have you ever written a short response? I had to clean my reading glasses at least three times trying to read them.:) LOL
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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23. August 2004 @ 17:17 |
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Hi Sophocles. :)
vurbal, I have now tried using "UnDot" and cannot see any significant improvement.
The three backups look actually identical to me. :/
http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/CCE_TESTS_7.zip (4MB)
Just to make sure, here are the ECL and AVS files I used...
Quote:
; Cinema Craft Encoder Basic -- Encoder Control List
; Created by DVD ReBuilder
[item]
title=V01003500002008
aud_out=0
vaf_file=H:\LOTR_ROTK_DVDRB\D2VAVS\V01003500002008.vaf
aud_file=H:\LOTR_ROTK_DVDRB\D2VAVS\V01003500002008.mpa
file_focused=0
packet_size=2048
width=720
height=576
frame_rate_idx=3
cbr_brate=6000
vbr_brate_avg=3435
vbr_brate_min=0
vbr_brate_max=9000
seq_endcode=0
dvd=0
half_width=0
half_height=0
lum_level=0
aspect_ratio=3
gop_m=3
gop_nm=4
gop_hdr=12
seq_hdr=1
all_closed_gop=0
fix_gop_length=0
samples_per_sec=44100
stereo=2
brate_idx=7
crc=1
progressive=0
alternate_scan=1
intra_dc_prec=2
aud_mode=0
tc_ref_frm=0
drop_frame=0
fix_vbv_delay=0
letter_box=0
pulldown_detect=0
offset_line=0
vid_file=H:\LOTR_ROTK_DVDRB\D2VAVS\V01003500002008.m2v
video_type=8
tc_offset=0
remove_vaf=0
pict_type=0
pict_complexity=2
filter_off=1
filter_on=0
pict_qchar=31
name=H:\LOTR_ROTK_DVDRB\D2VAVS\V01003500002008.avs
frame_first=0
frame_last=8054
encode_first=0
encode_last=8054
Quote:
#------------------
# AVS File Created by DVD Rebuilder
# VOBID:02, CELLID:08
#------------------
LoadPlugin("E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MPEG2Dec3dg.dll")
mpeg2source("H:\LOTR_ROTK_DVDRB\D2VAVS\V01.D2V",idct=7)
trim(166814,174867)
UnDot()
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)
In the example you gave me, you wrote "UnDot()".
Shouldn't it be "Undot()" or does it make no difference?
Also I have just read the plugin needs loading first, as in: "LoadPlugin("E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\undot.dll")". Would that be correct?
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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23. August 2004 @ 17:20 |
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Double "D'! Vurbal!
If this is a contest to see who can make the longest post then let me say that Vurbal wins by a small margin.:) (note the use of smilies). LOL
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
Staff Member
2 product reviews
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23. August 2004 @ 17:27 |
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Quote:
Vurbal
Have you ever written a short response? I had to clean my reading glasses at least three times trying to read them.:) LOL
Well you know what they say - if you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance....
Edit: See - a short post 8D
Mark it on your calender cause you might not see another one for a while.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. August 2004 @ 18:00
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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23. August 2004 @ 18:21 |
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Quote:
In the example you gave me, you wrote "UnDot()".
Shouldn't it be "Undot()" or does it make no difference?
AviSynth isn't case sensitive so it doesn't matter.
Quote:
Also I have just read the plugin needs loading first, as in: "LoadPlugin("E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\undot.dll")". Would that be correct?
It depends. Using LoadPlugin will guarantee it works because it explicitly tells AviSynth the location of the plugin. For most installs it won't matter as long as you put the DLL in the plugin directory (E:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\ in your case) so they'll autoload. Some people need it anyway, because sometimes programs hijack the registry entry for the plugin directory, which will cause plugins in the default plugin directory to not autoload. If that happens you'll know it because you'll get an error instead of your video.
I had a feeling that UnDot wouldn't do much, simply because I could see that the noise was at least mostly bigger than individual pixels. Unfortunately that's the price you pay for non-destructive filtering. It doesn't fix bigger problems. I think Deen is probably the best filter to use with it. I'd still leave in UnDot because it's probably removing noise that you may not notice, but which may still effect the encode (or just help Deen out a little). You might also want to set the Quant Characteristics (pict_qchar) back to 16 (24 if you're not changing it through DVD-RB).
Now that I've looked at the source material so much, and the noise is so bad, I'm going to have to look at my own copy to see what the NTSC version looks like.
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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23. August 2004 @ 18:49 |
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Ok, just done the same clip using both Undot and Deen.
It might look very slightly cleaner, but I can't say for sure as my eyes are getting very tired.
I'm now making another version with Undot, Deen and quality_prec lowered to 12 (>>18).
Unless the difference is very noticeable I'll post ny observations tomorrow (3:48am here). ;)
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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23. August 2004 @ 19:11 |
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Something I've noticed:
Quote:
(wmansir at DOOM9, talking about Undot and Deen)
These particular filters can only be used on progressive material.
In the ECL file, it says "progressive=0".
Couldn't that explain why I don't notice any improvement between the different backups??? :/
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. August 2004 @ 19:12
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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23. August 2004 @ 19:34 |
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Damn, good catch! I think you may have one of the infamous Progressive sources that are flagged interlaced. That's what the Disable interlaced option in the Advanced AVS Options is for. It's been reported that some Progressive PAL sources are flagged interlaced (in the MPEG headers) and if you actually encode (or upsample chroma) as though it were interlaced that will cause definite quality issues. Being in NTSC-country I've never seen one myself, but when I look at the VOB you provided I don't see any signs that it's interlaced, and certainly it should't be, because handling Progressive video that way (field blending) is strictly amateur hour.
I recommend using Disable interlaced on this project and trying the encode again.
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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23. August 2004 @ 19:42 |
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Sorry to be a pain, vurbal, but where can I find the option to disable interlaced?
Do I simply have to change "progressive=0" to "progressive=1", and are there other settings I'd have to change too?
I'll have to try tomorrow though, as I'm off to bed (4:41am). ;)
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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23. August 2004 @ 19:55 |
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If you want to do it directly through the ECL file and the AviSynth script, change Progressive=0 to Progressive=1 in the ECL and change ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=true) to ConvertToYUY2() in the AVS file. If that helps, you can start the project over again with DVD-RB and on the Options menu, go to AVS Options, then Advanced (Expert) Options, then Disable Interlaced and select Apply To All. This assumes that there aren't actually titles that are interlaced on the DVD, and I'm not sure if you're doing a full or movie only backup so I probably shouldn't make those kinds of assumptions.
Edit: Oops, you better change alternate_scan=1 to alternate_scan=0 in the ECL file as well.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. August 2004 @ 20:12
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64026402
Senior Member
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23. August 2004 @ 21:07 |
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ddlooping,
Since you didn't see the change I'm figuring your using cce 2.67. You need 2.69 basic to make use of the quality_prec setting. I forgot you probably had 2.67 for use with dvd2dvdr. Sorry.
I know it is a lot of extra time but if you wanted to make 1 more try I think you would see a dramatic change. Hopefully one you would like.
Donald
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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24. August 2004 @ 03:36 |
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Thanks, vurbal, I'll try that.
Edit: for future reference, is there a way to skip the processing of the VAF file?
Donald, I updated to the latest version - 2.69.01.10 - before my first successful DVD-RB backup.
Hopefully, the "progressive=0" is the issue.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. August 2004 @ 03:48
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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24. August 2004 @ 05:31 |
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No, you can't skip the VAF file, but keep in mind that's really equivalent to the first pass in other MPEG encoders. It just doesn't write an actual MPEG file because that would be pointless when all the first pass is only calculating quantization and bitrates. The only way to do single pass VBR encoding with CCE is to get CCE SP, and evan then there can be issues with calculating the filesize because it's designed to give you a file of whatever size it takes to get the quality you select.
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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24. August 2004 @ 05:56 |
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Thanks, I did not know the VAF files were equivalent to analysis files. :o
The latest test, with Progressive on, undot, deen, and quality_prec down to 18 (12), did not seem to improve the quality (I still can't differentiate one backup from another). :(
I can provide the clip(s) if you want to have a look.
I got another test to run though, with quality_prec at 30...
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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24. August 2004 @ 06:11 |
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This is really starting to annoy me (not you - the CCE's problem). I'm sure I wouldn't notice it on my TV, and maybe not on a friend's 56" widescreen (SDTV), but I'm equally sure it would stick out on another friend's HDTV. I may have to run my ROTK through DVD-RB just to see how the NTSC version comes out. I've already verified that the original has similar noise to the PAL version, but I don't think it's quite as bad. As much as I hate to say this, we may just be seeing that unless you can figure out the right combination of AviSynth filters (and that may take a real AviSynth expert), some poorly encoded sources (with the encoding artifacts in the original at a lower than optimal bitrate I have to consider it poorly encoded) DVD Shrink may be better in areas with artifacts. I'll get back to you later when I have some more time to work on it.
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1Adonis4u
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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24. August 2004 @ 06:31 |
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For movie-only backups the best option is to use DVD2DVD-R with CCE... the best of the best!
"Burn, baby, BURN!"
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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24. August 2004 @ 06:37 |
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I'm willing to entertain that notion, but I'd like to see more proof than just your word. Don't take this personally as it's not an attack, just a request for proof. If you have ROTK (particularly if it's the PAL version) I'd love to see some samples from the scene we've been discussing backed up with DVD2DVDR.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. August 2004 @ 06:41
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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24. August 2004 @ 06:58 |
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Damn, I wish I had used this scene in my DVD2DVD-R comparisons. :/
(I have deleted this backup a while ago)
However, if the other clips are anything to go by, both versions look identical.
This would confirm it's not a DVD-RB issue, but a CCE one.
I have now finished my last test. No improvement that I can see. :(
http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/CCE_TESTS3_7.zip
The first clip is from my initial test.
The second clip with Progressive on, undot, deen quality_prec 12/18.
The third clip with Progressive on, undot, deen quality_prec 32?/50.
I'm looking forward to your test results, vurbal, as I personally give up.
Thanks again for all your help and guidance.
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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24. August 2004 @ 07:02 |
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No problem :) At least you know a little (or maybe a lot) more about CCE and AviSynth now. I can't complain either because I'm definitely learning some things here, and hopefully when I'm done with it I'll have learned a little more still.
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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24. August 2004 @ 07:06 |
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I have definately learn quite a bit about CCE and AviSynth. :)
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64026402
Senior Member
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24. August 2004 @ 07:10 |
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ddlooping,
I'm am confused at your response.
I just checked your clips and like mine the smoothing takes out virtually all the noise.
They are side by side on my screen. What gives.
Vurbal, can you verify the difference between the clips.
Donald
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. August 2004 @ 07:11
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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24. August 2004 @ 07:18 |
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I'll let you know when I have time to make a proper comparison. Right now I'm trying to finish my first DRM guide before I get lynched ;)
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64026402
Senior Member
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24. August 2004 @ 07:25 |
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Take your time. DRM is more important anyway. This is just killing time.
Donald
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ddlooping
Senior Member
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24. August 2004 @ 07:35 |
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Donald, when you say the clips are side by side, do you mean you have two instances of your software player opened?
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