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13. August 2009 @ 19:38 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
The E5200 is the core 2 architecture, which means one 2.5Ghz core is equal to one 5Ghz core on the P4.



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harvrdguy
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13. August 2009 @ 23:23 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Hmmmmmm, interesting!

But why?

Just off the tip of your tongue, what can you recall that it is about the architecture - it's still got the northbridge data path unlike the i7 which got rid of that, sort of.

Are you saying the internal architecture of the core two duo chip, beyond the number of bits, like larger registers, etc. etc. stuff like that?

After your post I'll do a bunch of googling and reading, but just whatever you can recall without looking anything up.

thanks mate

Edit:
Well, it's complicated as hell - started to read a bit:

Lots of stuff about memory access - since the p4 3.8 is running at 19 times the fsb clock of 200mhz, every memory cycle spent supplying a waiting cpu results in 19 lost cpu cycles - one article said a cpu missing 200 to 300 cycles at a time is not uncommon - so the faster the cpu, the more cycles it sits and spins waiting for memory coming down the 200mhz bus. Getting data to the cpu becomes ultra important:

Quote:
The Core architecture prefetching is without any doubt superior to what can be found in the Athlon 64 and Pentium 4. There are no less than three prefetchers - two data, one instruction - in each core, plus two prefetchers for the L2-cache. With eight prefetchers active in one dual-core Core CPU, all those prefetchers could easily get in the way of the "demand" bandwidth - the bandwidth which is needed by the load operations of the running program. In order to avoid this bottleneck, the prefetch monitor of the Core CPUs always give priority to the demand bandwidth; the prefetchers will never steal too much bandwidth away from the running program.
Just the tip of the iceberg. Hmmmmm.

More stuff:

Quote:
Yes, Intel's Core does not use the aggressive domino and LVS circuit-design strategy that NetBurst designs used to achieve stunning clockspeeds. At the same time, it is a fat, massive reordering CPU which gives free lunch to developers who don't want to spend too much time on debugging heavily threaded applications.
It is interesting that this 2006 article talked about the absence of hyperthreading - which is now back in i7.

The folks in Israel, through a bunch of very fancy techniques, increased the effective processing power of the cpu per clock cycle with the data going down one single thread (for each core.)

In the little bit of reading so far - they did things like: 1. building in 4 decoders (breaking complex instructions down into simpler ones - whereas p4 has only 1 decoder) 2. they allowed loads to get ahead of stores (send the data ahead even though you haven't decoded what address it is going to - use prediction circuitry to help - if you guess wrong you lose 20 cycles - but real world is, on average, you make huge gains), 3. provide massive 256 bit wide data paths from cache to increase bandwidth, and 4. use micro-fusion to put together two little instructions - intel claiming you can do this once every ten instructions - for a 10-11 percent gain just from this one technique.

He mentions the free lunch because prior to the core development, the resounding point of view was that multiple cpus and lots of threads being processed at the same time was where performance increases were going to come from. So they had been telling software developers "there is no free lunch - you have to implement parallel processing." But then along came core, which was an outgrowth of several different earlier design philosophies, temporarily tossing out hyperthreading, and achieving, as Sam said, twice the data processing capability, clock for clock, as hyperthreading p4. Wow!

But the article was from 3 years ago. So now, with i7, we are back to hyperthreading - which means we are taking all the single thread gains from the core design philosophy, and now adding in the original concepts behind SMT - Simultaneous Multi Threading (hyperthreading.)

The author in this 3-year old article saw that coming, when he said: "When I suggested to Jack Doweck that the massive execution resources may not be fully used until SMT is applied, he agreed completely." So three years ago the Israeli designer (Doweck) agreed that hyperthreading - some years to come (now here) - would help this new core architecture fulfill its potential.

OK SAM - I'M STARTING TO GET IT!

Massive improvement in architecture means one 2.5 ghz E5200 core = 5.0 ghz p4 core! (Complicated and complex as hell!) LOL

Originally posted by Rich justifying throwing money away on an old computer:
I should never have bought the 3850 agp, which has locked me into the old technology - but I did it little pieces at a time. This last bit of investment in old crap will be the final flourish for this little highly ventilated case - with Jeff's new vf1000 cooling the hell out of that 3850, and the arctic cooling the 3.8ghz chip that's coming - (I won the auction - seventy bucks) - and I have my eye on 2 gigs of ebay ram to finish the load out (don't scream) THAT WHOLE LOT will buy me at least 10 more fps on Left 4 Dead, I'm convinced, and if they don't make Left 4 Dead 2 much more system-challenging, I'll be fine for 6-8 months until the real i7 spending begins, lol.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. August 2009 @ 04:26

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14. August 2009 @ 07:15 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Inside the CPU, a Core 2 or Pentium E is completely different. The overall design has entirely changed and essentially means that for every clock cycle there's a hell of a lot more going on in there. The memory access thing is one that people hint at for low FSB CPUs, but the E5200 has the same low FSB of 200.
Your info underneath essentially summarises some of the reasons why a 2.5Ghz E5200 busts the chops of a 4Ghz Pentium D of old, and for 50W of power, not 140.
Cheap though the P4 670 was, you still paid $70 for a CPU worth $25. Remember that.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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updated 10-Dec-13
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14. August 2009 @ 11:47 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
An interesting and rather disappointing bit of news for high end system builders, after a 12 month reign on the graphics market, the hd4870x2 has been discontinued by ATI and will no longer be sold. The reason is still as yet unknown, but now the only proficient GPU products out there are the HD4850X2 and the GTX295. Looks like the price of high end dual graphics PCs will be going up by about £100...



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updated 10-Dec-13
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14. August 2009 @ 12:04 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Does this mean they'll actually make a motherboard where quad-card crossfire is actually possible? Or are we stuck with pitiful dual-card? (yes I am aware some boards have quad crossfire stamped on them yet can't actually do it with modern high-end cards (like mine (I'm still bitter (even though its a fairly kickass board anyway)))) (That's a lot of needless brackets).

Been having a flick through a few sites and have decided I must buy/pre-order: Dirt 2, Split/Second, GT5, Blur, NFS: Shift, Assassin?s Creed 2, Left 4 dead 2, Bioshock 2, Modern Warfare 2, Call of Juarez: Bound In Blood, Prototype and a decent PSU (mines started making funny noises). List is incomplete. And I'm about to order Crysis because its only a tenner off play.



I could put something funny here but I cant be arsed. Now GO AWAY!

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. August 2009 @ 12:05

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14. August 2009 @ 12:13 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
4-card crossfire is already doable if you have the slots, but the ATX size specification of motherboards means that unless you use single slot cards, there's no room to do it. Not surprising your PSU is making noises, it's much too weak for your system.



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14. August 2009 @ 12:40 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I couldn't do it on my board with 4670's and that's suppose to be single slot. One of the only cards I've seen it done with is the 2600 as per this article from 2007 showing just how old my £100ish K9A2 platnium is: http://www.dvhardware.net/article22788.html



I could put something funny here but I cant be arsed. Now GO AWAY!
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14. August 2009 @ 12:45 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
You can do it with 4670s - but they have to have genuine single-slot coolers, not all of them are. The K9A2 Platinum is fully space, so you can do that even with dual-slot cards, e.g. four 4890s.
6-slot boards like the P6T6 can run quad crossfire, but some slots can only fit single slot cards, e.g. 4850s.



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14. August 2009 @ 13:45 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
most newer cases come with 8 pcie slots at the back, so even if the dual card slot goes over the bottom of the mobo its supported.



MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.
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14. August 2009 @ 16:40 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
as long as your case doesn't interfere. Additionally, most boards don't run 16x in the very top slot.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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updated 10-Dec-13
harvrdguy
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14. August 2009 @ 17:15 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sam plunging the dagger into rich:
Cheap though the P4 670 was, you still paid $70 for a CPU worth $25. Remember that.
LOL

Yeah you're right.

I got the Dell 30" - $850 - that was my BIG upgrade in 2009. Then I got the spedo case to force myself to do the new build - then I charged through my last sales check picking up laptops, in an unbelievable amount of time, and no longer had the money for the new build. Hahaha.

Minor correction - actually the 670 is 115 watts, not 140, but the arctic freezer 7 pro will cool the beejeezus out of it - yeah Jeff, you're right, I'm on an after-market cooling frenzy - because of you.

Sam - it's all Jeff's fault, I swear. You're right, there is no way this makes any sense - except the only way I am looking at it - the last fling for my hobby gaming machine that I have modded to death - with very trick ventilation that I am truly proud of. And finally, after-market coolers. I am learning stuff that will pay off. And the only thing I'm thinking of for now is getting a slightly smoother gaming experience on Left 4 Dead, and maybe Left 4 Dead 2, until early next year when I should be able to finally start the new build.

By the way, I have dropped the fsb back to 200 from 210. Little buggy things were happening, like trying to log into my user on the xp welcome screen, and having no password box open up. Never ever happened before on four computers running xp for over 5 years. (When they say you can't overclock a p4, they mean it, haha.) The 3.8 will give me a 20% speed boost, plus double L2 cache, and with the arctic on it, I might try one more time to go to 206 fsb, and then maybe to 210, and just see what happens.

What cpu test should I be running that will stress the cpu and log errors? Similarly, what mem test should I be running? Similarly what graphics card test will do the same thing?

If they're discontinuing the 4870x2 - what about a 4890x2. Or are they getting ready for the 5000 family?

Originally posted by shaff:
most newer cases come with 8 pcie slots at the back, so even if the dual card slot goes over the bottom of the mobo its supported.
That's the exact reason I traded in the antec 900 for the spedo over at microcenter - the antec had only 7 slots, spedo has 8.

I am surprised, sam, that you're "recommending" an amd board for quad cf with that K9A2 Platinum. Would quad cf be a reason to get the Phenom II and that motherboard? Four 4890s would be pretty strong, right?
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15. August 2009 @ 15:41 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I'm sorry but 4x 4890's with reference heatsinks would simply die from overheating:
Red blocks standard size 4890's
In the original image 1cm is 20 pixels (I think) the image below is shrunk to 456x600


My 4850 touches the heatpipe and you need to take the card out to swap RAM. The southbridge is flat enough to not interfere with the 4890's.



I could put something funny here but I cant be arsed. Now GO AWAY!

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. August 2009 @ 15:46

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15. August 2009 @ 15:50 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Ultimately, there is no magic bullet for stability, all you can really do is use the PC, and if it crashes, it's not stable. Your motherboard is probably too old to be overclocking the FSB much.
There won't ever be a 4890X2, as the amount of heat and power required is too great for one card. I'm not recommending an AMD board, the K9A2 is old and doesn't work with many good AMD processors, I'm simply stating it as a rare example.
Keith: They'd work, you'd just have to up the fan speed, but more importantly, have a strong side fan. You'd be amazed how effective they are in such examples, they can knock up to 40ºC off temps. However, as said, you're limited to three cards with the majority of systems. Who knows I may make my next upgrade a trio of single 5870s - they're easier to cool that way :P



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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15. August 2009 @ 15:59 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Actually rather impossibly the K9A2 is AM3 ready and has support for even the very newest Phenom II X4's, The Athlon II X4's and pretty much every other AMD chip: http://www.msi.com/index.php?func=prodcp...32&maincat_no=1



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15. August 2009 @ 16:01 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
True, but it does require a BIOS update, and possibly an older chip to run the flash from.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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15. August 2009 @ 16:04 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
My 6000+ required V14 and I simply plopped that in and was away. But obviously that's still 4 versions away from the newest.



I could put something funny here but I cant be arsed. Now GO AWAY!
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15. August 2009 @ 16:40 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Yeah, the AM3 CPUs require 18.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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updated 10-Dec-13
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15. August 2009 @ 20:37 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
interesting:

Quote:
Game Optimizations: ATI Catalyst? 9.8 Driver

Our test system configuration is: AMD Phenom II 940 (3.0GHz) processor Asus M3A79-T(790) motherboard 4GB DDR2-800 5-5-5-18 memory Windows VISTA Ultimate SP1 64bit

This month we are seeing a massive performance increase with a whole host of games as compared to the ATI Catalyst 9.7 driver. Detailed release notes are available for most of the game optimizations; here are the highlights:

* Battleforge DirectX 10/DirectX 10.1 performance improves of up to 50% with the largest gains in configurations using ATI CrossFireX? technology.
* Company of Heroes DirectX 10 performance improves of up to 77%.
* Crysis DirectX 10 performance of ATI CrossFireX technology in dual mode improves of up to 10% and quad mode performance improves of up to 34%.
* Crysis Warhead DirectX 10 performance of ATI CrossFireX technology in dual mode improves of up to 7% and quad mode performance improves of up to 69%.
* Far Cry 2 DirectX 10 performance of ATI CrossFireX technology in dual mode improves of up to 50% and quad mode performance improves of up to 88%.
* Tom Clancy?s H.A.W.X. DirectX 10/DirectX 10.1 performance of ATI CrossFireX technology in dual mode improves of up to 40% and with quad mode performance improving of up to 60%.
* UnigineTropics OpenGL performance improvements of up to 20%.
* UnigineTropics DirectX 10 performance of ATI CrossFireX technology in quad mode improvements of up to 20%.
* World in Conflict DirectX 10 performance improvements of up to by 10%.
vista/win7 64
https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/9-8_vista64_win7_64_dd_ccc_wdm_enu.exe

xp 32
https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/9-8_xp32_dd_ccc_wdm_enu.exe



MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. August 2009 @ 20:49

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15. August 2009 @ 20:38 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Yeah, interestingly the optimisations only apply to AMD CPUs. Also, way to break the page margins...



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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15. August 2009 @ 20:46 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Shaff, you need to fix your post. :)



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
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15. August 2009 @ 20:53 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
fixed my post.

have you tried the 9.8s sam?

also intresting everywhere the guns are firing for 10th of sept for the new 5 series.

so the 4870x2 being EOL once month before.... sounds right :)

hopefully itll push the price of a 1gb 4890/4870 to miniscule levels, for a modernwarfare upgrade for me, for some crossfire action :)

or screw that and get a nice indlix crucial 128GB ssd?



MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.
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15. August 2009 @ 20:56 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I haven't heard that early from anyone official yet, but if so... score!
You don't want an Indilinx SSD, you want an Intel one.
I was considering looking at maybe three solo 5870s for next gen next year, depending on what the dual cards are like.

edit: just seen it's breaking news. September 10th eh? Intriguing!



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. August 2009 @ 21:01

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15. August 2009 @ 21:28 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
the intels are too expensive and from what i see for everyday use there isnt much difference. a few seconds to boot vista/games, thats all.

£200 for the 128GB crucial indlix is a good price, i just hope they drop to near £128 in oct/november :D



MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.
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15. August 2009 @ 21:29 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Ain't gonna happen, for near double the performance in a fair few situations, £170 for 80GB ain't so bad.
Anyway, the new HD5870 announcment is very exciting news. On paper the specifications looked amazing. Obviously paper specs don't tell the whole story, but if they're even close to the truth the HD5870 solo could give the HD4870X2 a run for its money.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. August 2009 @ 21:40

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15. August 2009 @ 21:43 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
real life situations?



MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|.
 
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