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The Official PC building thread -3rd Edition
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Any Flaming Results in a Temp Ban or Worse. Your Choice!!!
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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17. August 2009 @ 19:38 |
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If I had some DVDs I'd like to try out DVD/RB, see if I can get one under 10 minutes :P
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 00:12 |
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I imagine the HIGH dollar Intels can do that. They sure as heck better for that price! Seriously, from what many have said, they Overclock nicely. Assuming a HDD can keep up with the job ;) Though most moderns drives should be up to that. That'd sure be a smokin CPU for 10Minutes :D
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
AfterDawn Addict
15 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 01:22 |
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I consider myself somewhat of an audiophile too. I'm very picky about my EQ settings and sometimes the bitrate of my music. I do most of my listening on my headphones but my new-ish Logitech X-530 5.1 system in CMSS Stereo Surround is rocking.
And yes I'm a big metal/rock listener. Metal NEEDS quality because of the levels of distortion already used making the music. I consider my sound system to be finely tuned for all types of listening and it puts out superb quality. La Grange by ZZ Top and the high quality version of BYOB by System of a Down are my two main songs for setting my EQ. I find that both have that perfect mix of electric and acoustic tones that allows me to get it just right.
Though tastes will always vary ;P
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388 |
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7 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 01:34 |
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Long live rock!!! :D
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2009 @ 02:03 |
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I remember back in the mid 80s, when Heavy Metal meant Cubic Noise! I would go to a party and and when Metallica started to sound good, I knew it was time to go home! ROFL!! I was done! Of course, when you try to brush something off your shoulder, and it's the floor!!!!! LOL!!
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
 This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2009 @ 02:09
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18. August 2009 @ 03:04 |
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GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 03:39 |
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I'll be buying it. Overall, its been a wonderful experience. And any bug that should arise, will be dealt with swiftly. However, the second I believe my privacy is being compromised, I'll jump on linux so quick, M$ will disappear into the woodwork LOL!
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
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18. August 2009 @ 04:11 |
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I read that article Russ, I think I'll be sticking with XP for a while.
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15 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 04:25 |
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I will also be buying it when it hits final. My initial experiences with it have been nothing but bliss. It's everything I loved about Vista, the eye-candy, the modern hardware support, the 64-bit(4GB of RAM actually gets USED), the slicker, less hassle user interface. But it drops everything I HATED about Vista. Especially the numerous bugs, the incompatibilities and needless bloat needed just to run the OS.
Yes I love XP like you wouldn't believe. But it sounds like I'll still be keeping a separate XP desktop if virtual XP is a REAL virtual machine and not just an app. XP is nice but it's seriously older than dirt. I've been using it for 7 years with really no fundamental changes. Sure you can change the looks of it but it's still a 7 year old OS. There are some things even Vista just "did better."
Again I'll mention the support for modern hardware. Moving files is much faster in Vista and 7 which means to me that XP is somehow choking HDD speeds. And it would be nice to have all 4GB of my RAM show up and actually be utilized. Sure it works great for multiple programs in XP but it's still useless for single demanding applications. Literally no improvement in XP moving from 2GB to 4. In XP my RAM shows up as 3GB and the largest use of memory I've ever seen was Crysis Warhead at 1.4GB. In Vista? 2GB at the same settings. Not only that but both Vista and 7 take a noticeable boost from the RAM upgrade. Not to say that either runs sluggish on 2GB, but it's like moving from smooth to snappy ;P
My hardware is definitely being better used by the newer OS. Of course they'll use more resources, but they're actually USING them :D
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 04:36 |
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Estuansis,
LOL! thats one of the first things I noticed about windows 7. It seems to bump up Sata transfer speeds. At least in my rig. Possibly USB transfer speeds as well :) As you said, MODERN hardware! Gamers/Graphics engineers definitely wanna jump on board.
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
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18. August 2009 @ 04:47 |
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Originally posted by FredBun:
I read that article Russ, I think I'll be sticking with XP for a while.
Yea well, Fred. I'm with you there! I mean, a new Taskbar is all the fundamental improvement over XP, and I have to learn a new way of doing things to boot? I just don't see any compelling reason to run out and buy Win 7!
Besides, I've already tried Win 7 and there's a long list of things I didn't like. Mainly that the amount of work involved to get all your programs and files working again. XP 64 was a lot easier! Driver issues where Vista drivers that were supposed to work and didn't. I'm sure that situation has improved because it has for XP 64! My second go-round went much better than the first, with many more programs being found in the 64 bit Program Files folder, and only 3 or 4 programs that simply would not run on 64 bit. There were also a number of work-arounds needed to use some of the programs that did work. Simple things like no Win RAR in the "R" click menu, so you could no longer just click and compress files. Still it wasn't difficult for me to figure out.
I know I'll be sticking with XP 64 or 32 bit for a while longer! As the man in the article said, "I see no compelling reason for switching from XP to Win 7", and my hard drive is still my own, not Microsoft's!
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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18. August 2009 @ 05:06 |
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Originally posted by Estuansis:
I will also be buying it when it hits final. My initial experiences with it have been nothing but bliss. It's everything I loved about Vista, the eye-candy, the modern hardware support, the 64-bit(4GB of RAM actually gets USED), the slicker, less hassle user interface. But it drops everything I HATED about Vista. Especially the numerous bugs, the incompatibilities and needless bloat needed just to run the OS.
Yes I love XP like you wouldn't believe. But it sounds like I'll still be keeping a separate XP desktop if virtual XP is a REAL virtual machine and not just an app. XP is nice but it's seriously older than dirt. I've been using it for 7 years with really no fundamental changes. Sure you can change the looks of it but it's still a 7 year old OS. There are some things even Vista just "did better."
Again I'll mention the support for modern hardware. Moving files is much faster in Vista and 7 which means to me that XP is somehow choking HDD speeds. And it would be nice to have all 4GB of my RAM show up and actually be utilized. Sure it works great for multiple programs in XP but it's still useless for single demanding applications. Literally no improvement in XP moving from 2GB to 4. In XP my RAM shows up as 3GB and the largest use of memory I've ever seen was Crysis Warhead at 1.4GB. In Vista? 2GB at the same settings. Not only that but both Vista and 7 take a noticeable boost from the RAM upgrade. Not to say that either runs sluggish on 2GB, but it's like moving from smooth to snappy ;P
My hardware is definitely being better used by the newer OS. Of course they'll use more resources, but they're actually USING them :D
estuansis,
XP-64 performs noticeably better than the 32 bit version, and I felt that the hardware was benefiting from the 64 bit part, as it has about the same performance as Win 7, given that I had just switched to XP-64 from Win 7! Both are noticeably faster than 32 bit XP! It wasn't just Sata drives, but all the hardware seemed to benefit from either 64 bit OS. It made for a much snappier OS with faster thruput, that runs excellent on 4GB of Ram. I'm very happy with XP-64! Thank You Chris!
Best Regards,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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18. August 2009 @ 06:31 |
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Do you know how I said about me being on the dev version of Chrome about a page ago. Well I boot up this morning and find there's an update from version 3.0.197.11 to V4.0.201.1!!! Are they taking the p*ss with the numbering system or something? Firefox dev version is only in V3.6 and that's epically old.
I tried XP 64-bit on (pretty much) the same hardware I have now and it was AWFUL there was horrific lag everywhere. Stuff like you'd open Internet Explorer the blue bar would pop up but the rest of the window would sit there white for about 5 minutes before it warmed up and actually showed stuff. It felt broken yet I checked, updated and installed everything that would seem to make it work better yet got nothing. As for 7 I've already ordered it so there's no point me looking at article's...
I could put something funny here but I cant be arsed. Now GO AWAY! |
AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 07:31 |
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Omega: I'm merely going by the logic that if a 3Ghz original Phenom architecture can do it in under 20, a 3.65Ghz yorkfield architecture should show some significant improvements. Who knows, I may end up getting an i7 later down the line (when i5 is released, the 920 is meant top be seeing a price drop to the same price the Q9550 currently is)
Jeff: Me too, which is why I was annoyed when Creative found out I was using an illegal driver setup and removed my software (no more CMSS or Graphic equalizer). I'm considering trying out an M-Audio sound card later on.
Russ: Not a Metallica fan then? :P - to be honest, I much prefer some of their later (but not necessarily the very recent) stuff, around the Load/Reload era.
Also, hate to say it, but Win7 as an upgrade from Vista has been common knowledge for a few months - all stores will offer it, not just PC World.
I feel I should buy Win7 since it has been a while since I have paid for any MS OS, but to be honest, I can't really stomach the cost for such a minor improvement on Vista. The only thing it really changes is the memory usage. The majority of the bugs in Vista are still present in 7. One thing vista and 7 do offer over XP is that they don't limit network shares to 21MB/s write.
Upgrading to 4GB in XP was forced upon me as I got up to about 2.9GB usage with some games (back in the firefox 1GB memory usage days, admittedly). of course, using two X2s forced that upgrade on me, as it would mean cutting to 512MB GPUs and only having 2GB of system RAM in XP, not to mention quad crossfire isn't supported in xp. No question, my current PC can only ever use Vista or 7, but I really see win7 as Vista service pack 3.
The fact that Russ thinks XP 64-bit is better than vista or 7 for driver support though is laughable, you can't even install your integrated controllers on xp 64-bit, let alone third party peripherals. Driver support for Win7 64-bit isn't ideal yet, but it's a lot better than it used to be, and since most drivers are built into the OS, you don't need to go hunting for them anyway. The only driver support bug I have issues with at the moment is that 64-bit drivers for HP inkjets don't currently support printing in colour. A pretty big bug, but if you use Lexmark, Canon or Epson printers I think you're fine (that'll be Lexmark then :P)
Oh and Jeff, XP is actually over 8 years old :P
Keith: To be honest, that's more logical than firefox's system, an update from 2.0 to 2.5 is a complete redesign, as might be 2.5 to 2.6, whereas 2.6 to 3.0 might not contain many changes at all.
Seriously XP 64-bit is perhaps just above Windows Me in the 'bad OSes' chart. The only thing I'd take over it is the very early betas of Vista. I'd have still taken a Vista RC over XP 64-bit, as I could actually run hardware out of Vista!
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18. August 2009 @ 17:20 |
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keith1993,
Quote:
Stuff like you'd open Internet Explorer the blue bar would pop up but the rest of the window would sit there white for about 5 minutes before it warmed up and actually showed stuff. It felt broken yet I checked, updated and installed everything that would seem to make it work better yet got nothing.
There's your mistake right there, opening Internet Explorer! ROFL!! I haven't used IE in 15 years or more. I only use it when I absolutely have to! Seriously though, The first time I used Win-64, I had all sorts of issues with it. Then again, me and a lot of other people didn't exactly install it by the rules either. You cannot have another OS installed on any drive, at all! If you plan to use dual boot, the 64 bit must be installed first! I added the second drive with 32 bit XP on it after 64 bit was installed. I had all sorts of issues with it because of that.
As it turned out, when I installed XP-64 this last time, about 5 months ago, I did it by the book, and haven't had any real problems with it at all. The first time, drivers that were supposed to work didn't. This caused me several issues with things like DVDRB/CCE. It would install and even run, but it would just stop in the middle of encoding. Sometimes it would quit at 20% done, but mostly it would get to about 80% and just cease to function. It didn't affect the computer at all, as Task manager showed the program as running. It acted like the software just stopped working in the middle of things!
After I installed XP-64 this last time the right way by removing XP-32, wiping the drive and then installing XP-64, I had very few issues. I think I had three programs that would not work. Alcohol 120% wouldn't work at all. Neither would 1 click Fixer or Soundtap! Alcohol says it's too expensive to make 64 bit drivers, and they don't plan on making 64 bit drivers for it at all! Imgburn does the job though, but it's slower than Alcohol doing it by several minutes. 64 bit also changed the way several programs worked. Things like Windows Media Player. You can't "R" click on the toolbar and set WMP to run in it, as WMP is missing from the drop down menu. No problem running it though. Win RAR can only be accessed manually as it no longer appears in the "R" click menu. Neither does Eraser! Drivers were not an issue either. I couldn't use the disk that came with my 9500GT, but nVidia had 64 bit drivers for it. I had to switch to RivaTuner, which also has 64 bit drivers.
Anyway, the wind up was a much faster OS, with very few issues. The 32 bit program folder contained less programs than it did the first time, with more programs winding up in the 64 bit Program folder. DVDRB/CCE worked flawlessly, and more than twice as fast in the Rebuild stage, typically about 4 minutes (faster Sata performance?)! That blue bar in the DVDRB window just screams across the screen during the rebuild process Since I didn't change anything but the way it was installed, I would have to conclude that if you follow Micro$oft's instructions and install it properly, it works very well! I was able to raise all the eye candy in FC2 and run just as fast as it ran with 32 bit, but with much better detail. I/O is much quicker too, in fact everything ran faster. I've been very impressed with it, and it's never crashed once! When I installed it the first time, blue Screens were the order of the day. It was never a question of if, only when! I'm very much liking XP-64!
Best Regards,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2009 @ 17:27 |
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Actually I thought the 64-bit OS had to go on last but that may be Vista and 7, not XP.
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2009 @ 19:20 |
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2009 @ 19:33
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 19:54 |
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P5Q = P45, P5E = X38 and X48. Asus thought the X38 and X48 chipsets were so similar they didn't change their mobo names for them. You only need a P45 so P5Q, but seriously, why not a TPower? Much more reliable board.
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18. August 2009 @ 20:11 |
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Originally posted by sammorris:
Actually I thought the 64-bit OS had to go on last but that may be Vista and 7, not XP.
Sam,
Both 7 and Vista own your boot drive, and can only be removed by wiping the drive. XP-64 doesn't, as it can be un-installed and replaced with another OS on the same drive. My rule of thumb has always been that if you can't uninstall something, then don't install it in the first place!
The thought that Microsoft now owns all the rights to your boot drive, sends chills down my spine. It's nothing more than preparation for the day that Microsoft starts giving the software away and charging a monthly fee for it's use! They can turn your O/S off, and there's nothing you can do about it!
The day that Microsoft announced that 120 days after an install, if your O/S wasn't valid, it would only let it boot up in safe mode, I knew that was the plan! Think about it!! You have no administrator rights to your own boot drive! Micro$oft has them all! You didn't pay your monthly fee, click, your OS stops working. Your O/S isn't valid, click, your O/S will only boot into safe mode. Your security is now in the hands of MicroSoft, as is all your information. Maybe even the various Government agency's, worldwide! Big Brother is about to kick the door off it's hinges, as it's right around the corner!
Am I Paraniod? I would rather tend to doubt that, as my time is limited. In fact it's that very thing that enables me to see what's been going on, right in front of a lot of us here at AD, without anyone realizing anything was going on! I know that If Hillary Clinton had become the US President, Bill Gates would have been head of Homeland Security! It looks an awful lot like he's planing to do the job, anyway.
There have been a number of Press releases from Micro$oft, and a hefty amount of Key Numbers have been canceled, including legitimate numbers. The Grace period on a fresh install, will be 120 days. After 120 days, if your O/S is legit, you have to go through Micro$oft for validation if you install a new HDD, ODD, Memory, CPU, Video card or Motherboard! Won't that make repairing computers fun?
Now for the really Ironic thing! Russell just this minute brought me in a piece of real mail, sent to this address, addressed to a name that only exists on my computer, was matched to my Father who legally hasn't used that name since before I was born. It was sent, Next of Kin! I returned it, "Not At This Address" and dropped it in the mailbox! Now that's what I call Ironic, given the timing! There wasn't the usual "Or Current Resident" on the address, either. A bit Scary too, as I have never in my life received a snailmail like that, that was associated with my computer before, and it's disturbing as it means that someone unauthorized has been looking inside my Social Security information using information that only exists in Micro$oft's information on my computer! I don't have admin privileges to alter or erase those files either! Maybe elmer Fudd wasn't so wrong after all! Be vewy afwaid. Be vewy, vewy afwaid. LOL!!
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. August 2009 @ 20:14 |
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I always wipe the drive if I need to reinstall an OS, as added security against viruses. I never install more than one OS per HDD. If I want another OS, I tell the BIOS to boot from another HDD. It's so much less hassle that way, you can do whatever the hell you like with operating systems.
Microsoft already control so much that you do (even service packs for XP are bad for this) I'm past caring. Until I see them filling Windows with rootkits I'm happy to suffer it.
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18. August 2009 @ 20:20 |
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i think its fair that if you havent activated a product that it will ceace to work for you.... and i have never seen anyone just uninstall any windows, you can upgrade windows, but not downgrade without formatting the patition that windows is on. This is common standard practice.
I also doubt that MS have been stealing ones information, and if so russ, why not go to mac/linux instead?
MGR (Micro Gaming Rig) .|. Intel Q6600 @ 3.45GHz .|. Asus P35 P5K-E/WiFi .|. 4GB 1066MHz Geil Black Dragon RAM .|. Samsung F60 SSD .|. Corsair H50-1 Cooler .|. Sapphire 4870 512MB .|. Lian Li PC-A70B .|. Be Queit P7 Dark Power Pro 850W PSU .|. 24" 1920x1200 DGM (MVA Panel) .|. 24" 1920x1080 Dell (TN Panel) .|. |
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18. August 2009 @ 20:25 |
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Sam,
Quote:
Russ: Not a Metallica fan then?
Back then, no! They are or at least were a much better group in more modern times. I never listen to a radio, and watch very little TV so it's rare that I get to hear any new music. I have everything on my computer that I want to listen to! I was a big Ratt fan when they first started. Still have their first album! Much more a Classic Rock fan today!
Best Regards,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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bigwill68
Suspended permanently
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18. August 2009 @ 20:42 |
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Originally posted by sammorris:
but seriously, why not a TPower? Much more reliable board.
I wanna know that answer also? but if the decision is on getting the Deluxe it would be a great time to get one why the price low..
and Free Shipping...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131297
Enjoy Building...
Done out of Here!
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4 product reviews
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18. August 2009 @ 20:43 |
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$14 extra doesn't seem much to pay for a board that will last at least three times as long. Ah well...
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18. August 2009 @ 20:50 |
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As Russ said this time around XP 64 is a lot better I finally found beta drivers for my HP 2600 to work the way it should! Full color and all. Up til now I could only run the Epsons, Canon [limited].Still won't print from outlook without saving to my Docs.Any input on open box Mobo's from Newegg?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. August 2009 @ 20:56
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