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The Official Graphics Card and PC gaming Thread
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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17. October 2011 @ 22:38 |
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Yeah, give Rage a try Kevin.
In the Eurogamer review that I linked to above (with the picture of the cute girl) the id guy who was manning the Rage E3 presentation booth this past June, told the reviewer that they wanted to deliver 60 fps for everybody, console or PC.
I didn't know that before this afternoon when I read the review. So I was shocked when the default settings showed 2560x1600, since it seems that every game wants to start me out at 800x600. I started playing, and I was even more shocked at how beautiful all the textures were, and that I was getting about 58 fps (30 in vehicles.) I don't get those kinds of framerate numbers on anything!
I can't remember, but I think I recall that an 8800gtx is faster than a 260. However your new 24" is displaying fewer pixels, 2.3 vs 4 million. And Rage may be optimized for nvidia. If you have problems, Jeff or Sam, or Shaff or DXR, will likely have a fix. But I am guessing it will run fine.
And if you haven't tried it yet, check out digital vibrance. You'll find it in the nvidia control panel. That is one of the great things that happened to me when I inherited this 8800gtx card and ran the monitor optimize wizard. COD World at War looked incredible! The flames in the burning forest! The cottages and the corn fields! The South Pacific jungles! Gaming had never looked so rich and exciting!
Just like some of the other forum posters mentioned, as I noticed when I was researching how to do the same thing on ati cards, I have to agree with them: Having tasted digital vibrance, I cannot live without it. Luckily my research paid off. I found the answer. So next year, when I get the 7000 graphic upgrade I'll reproduce the nvidia digital vibrance through Catalyst enhanced saturation and color temp, which is hidden under the monitor color settings (display panel - avivo color.)
(AMD buries it - Nvidia flaunts it!)
I have already tested the Catalyst equivalent to digital vibrance on my old P4 in the sunroom with the 3850 card powering a beautiful 1600x1200 20" Dell. I have a group of horses screenshot on my desktop on that computer, which is from a collection of 2560x1600 wallpaper pictures that Sam clued me in about, downloaded from interfacelift.com. When I reset ati color saturation and temp back to "regular" the colors lose their brilliance and pizzazz, and while the picture is nice, by comparison it is totally bland. I hate that! I'm a junky. I have to have my richer-color-tones fix. LOL
So best wishes on a clean install of Rage whenever you get around to it - maybe this coming weekend as you said. Let me know how it ends up looking - and running!
Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 17. October 2011 @ 23:54
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. October 2011 @ 00:18 |
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The 8800 faster than the 260? Surely not! It seems like I read somewhere it was 10 - 25% faster in most games :S You might be thinking of the lesser version. I have the best GTX 260. The one with more stream processors.
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18. October 2011 @ 05:59 |
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The 8800GTX was never faster than the GTX260, nowhere near it. The original 192-core GTX260 is 30% faster than the 8800GTX, and the 216-core version 45% faster, that's before you overclock as well, many of the GTX260s overclocked quite considerably.
I've seen what games are like with the gamma messed with, and vibrant though it is, I don't like it - it's not even slightly realistic. It's not something anyone else I know uses, and the reason isn't that they don't know about it - presumably the reason AMD don't make it abundantly obvious is because nobody uses it. Not saying you shouldn't, you obviously prefer it, but I think that's quite a minority viewpoint I'm afraid Rich.
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18. October 2011 @ 08:36 |
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I'll have to agree with Sam. Digital vibrance is an interesting concept and a lot of monitors/video cards respond quite well to its use. I aim largely for subtle changes and color accuracy though, which digital vibrance throws off a bit. Obviously you've found some situations where it makes a difference and I don't blame you for using it. There's more science to it than small changes in gamma and brightness like some seem to think. It adjusts everything from color levels to temperature to contrast. So while it can have good results, it throws off some of the base settings of the monitor. I don't necessarily need my monitor for intense graphics work but there's no reason it shouldn't have perfect color accuracy XD
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. October 2011 @ 09:07
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18. October 2011 @ 08:39 |
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Anyone else getting this a lot?
AD forums are really going to hell lately...
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18. October 2011 @ 09:18 |
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AD just celebrated a decade not too long ago. The size and complexity of the data you compound after that long a time is astounding. Think AD is either doing some updates, or needs some.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
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18. October 2011 @ 12:06 |
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Other than the AMD thread recently, smooth sailing.
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ddp
Moderator
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18. October 2011 @ 22:35 |
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they upgraded to new servers so there is some issues going on. when they fix them is anybody's guess.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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19. October 2011 @ 01:53 |
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Well, ddp, some of that stuff is weird. Like right now, the entire left side of your comment is covered over by "The fabric of the cosmos" and there is no way to uncover it - I decided to roll with the thing, and it became transparent enough to let me read the beginning of what you said. I hope the stuff gets fixed. I actually couldn't even open the forum, recently, until I switched over to google chrome - because all the ad scripts completely overloaded my IE (on my old p4 2.8ghz business desktop.) But I'm okay with google chrome or firefox, except for the ads actually blocking some posts, as I just mentioned.
LOL - excuse me guys - wow, my memory didn't serve me on that one. I guess the 260 is faster than an 8800!! Well, okay then, that cinches it - Kevin, you won't have any trouble at all!
Hahaha - Sam! You're afraid that not everybody loves digital vibrance as much as color blind Rich? Hahaha. Sounds like a giant understatement. Okay, I see that you're not a super fanboy on that, Sam. Still, I feel I must add, having never known about digital vibrance, that I felt like I had discovered something truly amazing when I encountered it, and I still do feel that way.
So it is my duty to tell Kevin about it, lol. Of course, he's a Photoshop whiz, so he probably won't want anything but true-blue authentic coloration, but still he might find it fun from time to time to add a little pizzazz. I remember the red tractor on Operation Flashpoint, Dragon Rising. That was one lovely red tractor with a bit of digital vibrance thrown in, lol.
Yeah, I know it's totally a personal thing, like the choice of fashion. I like how you put it, Jeff. I have to agree, there is absolutely no question that the colors do get tweaked - and also that the color accuracy takes a beating.
I can see it on my p4 and 3850 in the sunroom - some of the logon user pictures are actually too vivid even for me! Occasionally I back it off - but overall I really like it for gaming. And for those horses in that dramatic wallpaper shot. Take it away - those horses just die!
Notice that I mentioned that I dropped it down to low-medium - it got a little too vivid even for me on some of the titles. Maybe it's just a phase I'm going through, like wearing bell-bottoms. Maybe it's not just Carmack who is dropping acid. Psychedelic! Not for everybody. Tune in, turn on, drop out. And turn up your digital vibrance. Says Rich, sitting in his corner, stoned again.
Haha
Speaking of titles - I'm on my second trip back through Rage now, using mostly fists to kill every mutant in sight, and also trying out fists on some of the human bandits - fists are a one punch kill most of the time.
Running nightmare difficulty, I dove right into the first sewers I came to after the ghost raid, with no shotgun yet. The first two mutants were a one-two blow of my fists. Then I went down the ramp, and tried to hold out in a little room, and got swarmed when some of them came in behind me. But not to worry! I hit F9 and there I was top-side, starting my descent one more time - the watchman dutifully horrified as he said, if you go down there you better take some heavy weaponry. He doesn't know about my one-two punch.
I went down and killed the first two again. I swear the first one said Doh, like the Simpsons. Then it became clear to me that I was already at the best place to defend. I ran down to trigger the attack, then came back to the entry ramp, just before a few steps leading downward. And I crouched for the kill.
The little buggers came running toward me. They had to leap up the three little steps to hammer me with their homemade clubs or knives. There I was crouched, BOOM! The Rich iron fist shoots out! Wham! a little mutant goes flying!
I mean it - they flew up in the air! I never saw anything like it! Five, ten, twelve little mutant bodies spread all over the place, lol. All victims of my "fists of fury" I stole their little treasure buried under the little pile of bones, without firing a shot. When I got back to the Hagar settlement, I didn't have any more money on me than if I had never gone into the sewer to begin with! What did that sewer-guarding watchman idiot say about mutants hoarding good stuff - what? - a bunch of worthless bones!!
By the way, on that ghost adventure, killing the ghost gang, I came across some grenades, and on the screen it said "Press F3, then F" to use grenades. I pressed F3, and to my amazement, the quick-use icon on my lower left changed from wingblades to grenades.
The F key and middle mouse are both mapped to the quick use item. (They were there all the time on the middle mouse key and I played the entire game all the way through and didn't know it.)
But what I am saying is - you don't have to hit Tab, open inventory, and then try to figure out, by assigning, and unassigning, how to get something on your quick-use key, you just hit the various Function keys, and that is how you change it. I wish I had known that the first time I went through the game!
This time around I plan to have more fun. I already built two sentry gun bots, after reading on Eurogamer that the guy relied heavily on the little spider bots to help him do all the shooting at the end of the game. I would like to see how those sentries handle the hordes of mutants who attack at various points in the game. Also this time around, I'll be using electro bolts a lot more for the crossbow. I want to see if I can take down the gattling gun soldiers, like in the Gearhead vault, with those things, instead of only relying on the rockets.
Those guys are massively armored - but it seems that armor doesn't stop a soldier from getting shocked. But maybe it will take all 3 bolts before reload. Also I'll be using dynamite crossbow bolts a lot more. Man are they effective on the shield soldiers! If they are standing up, you can hit their foot with one of those things, and the guys cuss "Damn it!" when they see the timed charge on their foot - BLOOM!!! - where they stood there is nothing but a giant bloodstain, lol.
And when those shield guys crouch, no feet are exposed, but there still is one tiny exposed area on the upper left of their shield as you look at them - a well-placed electro bolt or dynamite bolt works well there too. One more thing about the cross bow. I started using the steel tipped crossbow bolts, to use them up. I realized I could see them fly from my bow to virtually take off the head of the soldiers crouched behind cover 30 yards away. Watching those bolts silently slice through the air like that was very cool. (But I won't buy any of them, unless it's to make the ones with dynamite - I think you actually have to buy the schematic, and build the dynamite bolts, you can't buy them. You can buy the electro bolts though.)
The girl who hangs out at the Wellspring outfitter is Ginny. Here she is again. I think I'm in love.
Jeff, I took one more look at Dr Strangelove, meaning that bizarre game called Stalker. I applied the complete mod, and the graphics became an entirely different story. But I couldn't get into the game anyway. I know they tried to do a better job of translating from the Russian, but the conversation with Wolf was strangey strangey. I did appreciate the little mannerisms of the trader though. And I took Russian in college, and I appreciate the language and culture. But it's an old title - 2007 actually. And the controls totally suck. And they don't care how confused you are. When did the first COD come out, 2003? I see how Chernobyl happened - they brought in some new guys to run the plant, and didn't teach them how to do anything, just like the guys who made this video game, lol. My hat is off to you, Jeff, for your patience.
The comparison from Rage, that I had just finished, was too much of a contrast. I did get Metro 2033 - maybe I'll try that if I can get it to run at reduced graphic settings. I would expect a similarly depressing atmosphere (lol) but at least hopefully a modern set of controls and a little better guidance to help me up the learning curve ramp.
That makes you appreciate even more a game like Rage. I didn't even know about the function keys changing your quick use weapon or tool, because I wasn't paying enough attention the first time around. And I totally forgot about cap lock, opening up the weapon and bullet type selection. But by just knowing about the tab key, I still was able to do everything.
Where is a similar set of commands all in one place (the Rage tab key) for Stalker? No, you get a bunch of diverse keyboard keys you have to memorize. I don't think that is user-friendly. There is a key for the pda, another key for inventory, some other keys, like [ and ] for god knows what else - keys all over the place like Arma. haha.
I guess I would have continued with arma, after an all-nighter on the training, if, when I got my weapon, the barrel stock didn't take up half my screen. WTF! No way was I going to walk around the hillsides with that giant gun stock taking up half the screen. At that point I deleted the game. I did the same for Stalker, but I kept the complete mod. Maybe one day I'll give it another try, but probably not.
Sorry to end on such a low note.
I swear I don't know how these posts get so long. I came on to write a quick 5 minutes and play some more, but I got carried away again writing about Rage. Kevin, you just don't know what you're in for. I guess we all have it figured out that your 260 will totally DOMINATE, if, by comparison, my miserable puny 8800 can handle it. Hahaha.
Kevin, if you don't just totally love this game, I will give you your money back. Ask Shaff, I mean it! You have a rare treat waiting for you. And don't forget to turn up your digital vibrance.
Hahahahahahaha!
Rich
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19. October 2011 @ 02:30 |
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Rich, I get two paychecks this week. I'm TOTALLY getting the game :) Can't wait to play it!
I'm Probably updating my CPU to 1090t as well. I can use the extra cores. And from what I can tell, the 1090t's single threads are equal to my current 965. But I do use apps that can utilize the extra two cores. I may just call that my upgrade for a while. I'm rather disappointed with AMD's offerings at the moment. And I can't see spending 400 - 600 on an intel system. Not at present anyway. Not even in february(Tax time). I think I want a VERY VERY good camera instead :)
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19. October 2011 @ 19:04 |
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Quote:
Jeff, I took one more look at Dr Strangelove, meaning that bizarre game called Stalker. I applied the complete mod, and the graphics became an entirely different story. But I couldn't get into the game anyway. I know they tried to do a better job of translating from the Russian, but the conversation with Wolf was strangey strangey. I did appreciate the little mannerisms of the trader though. And I took Russian in college, and I appreciate the language and culture. But it's an old title - 2007 actually. And the controls totally suck. And they don't care how confused you are. When did the first COD come out, 2003? I see how Chernobyl happened - they brought in some new guys to run the plant, and didn't teach them how to do anything, just like the guys who made this video game, lol. My hat is off to you, Jeff, for your patience.
Yes the Complete Mod does a lot to update the engine. The game is a bit large and confusing to begin with, but it gets a lot better as you go. I might mention that the first Stalker is ancient in comparison to the next two in both graphics and design. If you want a really good shot at enjoying the game, skip right ahead to Stalker Call of Pripyat. The design, controls, graphics, everything are all superior in every respect. There are also more NPCs and the play areas are much larger. The translation and story are also miles better. The original Stalker was largely a basement hit, so it does have a lot of translation and coding errors. The subsequent titles simply had much better funding and are much better games.
Quote:
The comparison from Rage, that I had just finished, was too much of a contrast. I did get Metro 2033 - maybe I'll try that if I can get it to run at reduced graphic settings. I would expect a similarly depressing atmosphere (lol) but at least hopefully a modern set of controls and a little better guidance to help me up the learning curve ramp.
Again, check out Stalker Call of Pripyat. The learning curve is much better, as are the controls and graphics. With the Call of Pripyat Complete Mod, it is one of the prettiest games I have played and the least buggy of the three games. It also has the best weapons selection and much better gun balancing than the first game.
I'm just saying Rich that they really are that different in respect to quality and modernization. I think you could really get into it if you played the best one.
A good example of one of my favorite moments. I hear a firefight start up in the distance, a fairly large one. Hoping to help out some friendlies, I break my cover and rush headfirst towards the fight. By the time I get there, there's only one guy left, a member of a friendly faction, surrounded by his dead buddies and a whole pile of dead enemies. You can tell from the corpses that the firefight attracted a pack of wild mutants as well, so the surviving fighter's accomplishment is all the more impressive. His equipment, a military exosuit and an automatic shotgun and just for good measure, a high-powered assault rifle with armor-piercing ammo. He was the only guy in the group equipped for deep raids ie heavy armor, heavy weapon, extra ammo etc and his friends paid the price for being unprepared. 6 hours of gameplay later, I find the same guy, only this time his friends are well equipped as well! lol.
Of course, if the guy dies, he is replaced by another generic NPC who assumes his roles, duties and friendships relating to you and other factions, so the game doesn't feel disjointed or broken by such random fights and encounters that the NPCs face. ie if you help an NPC and he becomes your friend, but dies somehow later on, he is replaced by another NPC of the same faction who remains your "friend" in his place. Making the NPCs so expendable does make the game feel a bit "fake" at times but where it really shines is highlighting the survival atmosphere of the game. You'll find very often that the poorly equipped loners die quickly outside of safe areas, while the well equipped pros in large groups tend to stay alive indefinitely. This has a major effect on gameplay too as the well equipped pros tend to make camps or outposts once they get so far into a dangerous area. They then receive reinforcements every couple days depending on their losses, and as long as the group stays alive, you have a handy safe spot with friendlies in an otherwise hostile area of the game.
Stalker has several very complex relationship systems between different factions and yourself. It really helps you feel less alone and make you feel like part of a bigger picture. It's a comforting sight when you're exploring an isolated area full of baddies looking for loot, and you happen upon a well armed squad of friendlies with the same ideas in mind. They often make their way to points of interest if the area isn't too dangerous, so it pays off to follow and protect them. Of course the game keeps them from wandering into instant death zones, but the inherent danger of a given location is still enough for even experienced squads of hardened veterans.
I suppose the reason Stalker appeals to me is the attention to detail. I appreciate nothing more than attention to detail in gamemaking, and the two newer Stalker games especially have it in spades. They are very detailed, very complex, but present themselves in an accessible way.
Also, Metro 2033 is very good and very atmospheric, being a survival-horror game after all. I don't know how your 8800GTX will run it though. It's very demanding :( There are some cfg settings that help performance a bit though. I suggest you google them up as I cba to do it right now. Specifically forcing Vsync and fixing your FOV helps a lot if your system is struggling. The game itself is very modernly made. It is an absolutely linear corridor crawler, though in this case I think it's a good thing.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. October 2011 @ 00:07
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20. October 2011 @ 08:39 |
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Following a more in-depth analysis of the game, my unified score of Rage has to be changed. Previous information took the game with default settings, which means graphical quality was automatically reduced on Radeons to keep the frame rate high. Thus, there would be significant image quality discrepancies if the cards were drawing equal frame rates.
Previous unified score
Both brands (8xAA): 120/140
New score
Rage (Nvidia) (8xAA): <95/170
Rage (AMD) (8xAA): <135/425
Rage (AMD) (4xAA): <100/170
8xAA is essentially an nvidia-only feature (and it wouldn't be the only one) due to its monumental performance impact on Radeons. The game also features an nvidia-exclusive 16xAA mode, which looks absolutely disgusting, effectively like you've put on a strong pair of glasses you don't need.
Since the game is built from the ground up using nvidia-licensed technology, it's a pretty basic affair using AMDs. Hardware accelerated texture loading (to fix the 'pop-in' problem the game still suffers, though less pronounced after a patch) uses CUDA, so is nvidia only.
The game also features a smart VSync setting which disables VSync if the frame rate falls below 60 (to prevent switches to 45/30 lowering the frame rate more than necessary) - also an nvidia feature. AMD users can take solace in the fact that this is reliant on a driver which nvidia haven't released yet, so for now they don't get it either.
Lastly, neither Crossfire or SLI are supported for the game, and may not ever be supported.
Technologically, the game is a wreck, and that's before the glitches - AMD themselves have produced at least three separate drivers incrementally repairing the mess, which contains over a dozen bugfixes for just Rage alone. Despite this, there are still graphical glitches, like this one:
and this one
Brent Justice of [H] has done a remarkable job of summing up Rage:
Originally posted by Brent:
Brent's Thoughts
"Rage" is the perfect descriptive title for RAGE, as many gamers have raged over RAGE. The systemic issue with RAGE goes back to the design and philosophy that id Software took regarding this game's development. It was stated that id Software does not see the PC platform as a leading gaming platform anymore and that RAGE was designed with the console in mind first, and the PC as an afterthought.
"You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," Carmack replied. "We chose the latter."
"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added.
This tells us that id Software's focus has changed. id Software is no longer focused on PC gaming, which is where it all started for the company and most FPS players. id Software has chosen to follow the path of consoles, and leave PC gamers behind. Personally, I feel as if id Software has abandoned the community that made the company what it is today, or at least the greatness it had years ago. RAGE is a perfect example of what designing a game with consoles first can do to a game on the PC. We are left with a game that has a very poor texture management system that causes visual texture loading that is distracting to the immersive level of the story. A more traditional system would have been better for RAGE. We have low resolution textures, that when viewed up close remind us of games from 10 years ago. We have a game that is laden with glitches and bugs on the PC, many visual glitches that distract from gameplay.
Beyond that, the gameplay itself isn't anything groundbreaking or extraordinary. We've seen it all before. This was supposed to be id's big comeback, id's big IP that would show every other game developer how a game should be done. It simply isn't, it falls quite flat, and will quickly be thrown into the trashcan to be forgotten. We have new games coming this year that are just simply going to be worlds better. This is all quite a letdown from the id Software that brought us games like Wolfenstein, Doom and Quake.
and likewise, Kyle Bennett, also of the same team, has spoken similarly wise words:
Originally posted by Kyle:
I want my damn money back.
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20. October 2011 @ 09:19 |
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It's true. Rage has too many severe technical shortcomings. My major gripe is not being able to adjust the graphics at all and having to force a single texture resolution just to make it perform right. What about the people unaware of all the stupid little tweaks I had to do? Simply, there is no way to judge the quality or performance of the game, because there are no settings, period. That's a major fail in my book. I didn't spend untold amounts of my own money and time building and tuning this PC to have some HACK GAME DEVS TELL ME WHAT SETTINGS TO USE. id you can go **** yourselves.
Also, the auto-adjusting textures/graphics CAUSE performance drops as everything has to be re-drawn every time you dip a single FPS below 60. So you dip, the auto-adjustment kicks in, which causes more FPS drops, which causes it to kick in and so on and so forth. It creates a loop of frame drops that cause both graphics and performance to suffer for absolutely no reason. You'd think given the massive development time, amazing amounts of hype, and it being a showcase for graphics technology, there would at least be nuts in the sh*t-sandwich that is Rage.
Don't get me wrong, the actual game itself is great, but it's like what 12 hours long? It's also a 21GB install, the largest of any game I have ever seen, which is ridiculous for the anemic play time, generic, repetitive environments and severe lack of content. Carmack says it's over 1TB uncompressed. 1TB of what? Certainly not content...
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. October 2011 @ 09:22
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20. October 2011 @ 09:26 |
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Indeed, the chain reaction problem is well documented. Be thankful you can run it at all, it's a firmly held belief at id software that anyone who owns an AMD graphics card should not even be playing one of their games.
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20. October 2011 @ 09:38 |
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Backstabbing, single-minded developers deserve to have their games stolen. id basically gave PC gamers the middle finger, but major problem: PC gamers aren't quite the herd of sheep console gamers are. So the PC gamers are giving that middle finger back in spades. id deserves to have Rage fail. AFAIK the PC gaming community at large is pissed.
Also, an article on [H]ardOCP says that Carmack is very disappointed with how the game turned out on PC, and regrets designing it as a console game. He says when they started devving it, consoles were roughly on par with PCs, so they figured they could get away with porting it.
http://www.hardocp.com/news/2011/10/07/..._sucks_on_pc63/
"We should be focusing on building things efficiently on the PC and deploying on the consoles." And we didn’t make that as crisp of a distinction as we should have."
So for the record, even id acknowledges what a cluster this game is, and that they made a mistake not devving it for PC.
Also, Bulletstorm was a fairly average game, but it had miles more style, attitude, and content than Rage. So even average games are better.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. October 2011 @ 11:37
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20. October 2011 @ 12:58 |
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Well, I feel uneasy buying the game now. id Software isn't getting a red cent til I've tested the game on my hardware(middle finger). And since I plan on an Ati card in the near future, that makes me even more nervous. Thanks guys for nudging me in the right direction. ;)
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. October 2011 @ 12:59
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Griff88
Junior Member
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21. October 2011 @ 01:01 |
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I apologize ahead of time if this isn't the right place to post this. However, there is a lot of traffic here and thought I should post here.
Amazon is selling the HIS Radeon HD 6970 2GB (RoHS) H697F2G2M for $203.99 after rebate, $223.99 without rebate... compared to $329 at newegg. The card is Temporarily out of stock, however you can still order it. You will not be charged until, and if it ships. It's probably a price mistake, but nothing to lose for a card like this if it goes through.
http://www.amazon.com/HIS-Eyefinity-Min...19173451&sr=1-1
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. October 2011 @ 01:07
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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21. October 2011 @ 01:06 |
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That's a serious price difference! But I must digress. The 7000 series is not far away. Not for me anyway. Time goes very quickly for me.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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21. October 2011 @ 02:12 |
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Wow.
Well thanks Griff and Omega for a little break from the lively debate that has popped up here on the forum.
That shows me what the Rage opposition is, and I went to Jeff's Hard Forum link, and took notice of the scathing criticism! Some people are so hard to please, lol!
Well, we have a strong divergence of opinion here - let it never be said that AfterDawn ever hosts a dull moment in commentary.
In view of all of that negativism, I am even more astounded and amazed that the game just ran great from the start at full 2560x1600 on my machine. That's where they set it - I tried later to add AA and it crashed. So if it works, don't fix it - I'm not touching it and I think it's better than ice cream.
I never ever hit 60 fps - I'm always a bit behind from 56 to 58 (30 in vehicles) and the game flat runs smooth, and I think the textures are absolutely lovely, just like the Eurogamer guy wrote about Crazy Joe's cabin, from his E3 writeup.
I'm not taking back one single word of my review. But I sympathize with those who have had problems running the game - like I said, frustration is a total kill-joy, and if the game has been ruined for you guys, then that's such a pity.
It's been a lark for me!
Since you, Kevin, have an nvidia card, it will probably run great for you like it has for me. Don't let the fact that you plan on getting an ati card later, at the same time that I do, stop you from enjoying it now.
Remember what Sam said. Ati is trying like crazy to fix the game. By next spring when we get our 7000 cards, Rage will probably run well also on Ati cards. In the meantime, for your 260, I guarantee your play enjoyment, or your money back.
I won't say the same for Sam - he's too down on the game already - it's been ruined for him, and for Brent. He probably doesn't even like my honey Ginny, out in front of the Wellspring outfitter. I can hear him already "She's a loose tramp not fit to wash my dishes!"
LOL
Actually that's not true at all. Ginny is a hard-working girl who hangs out all day long looking pretty in front of the store owned by the really weird-looking guy who sells just about everything.
The loose one is the one who teaches how to use wingsticks. Look at her name - that's loose if there ever was one!
But getting back to our fierce debate, Sam, your discussion of the Rage drawbacks highlights your technical prowess, which is legendary - I wish I knew 1/3rd of what you know about hardware and software - but I have to say, with a little embarrassment, that I couldn't easily spot the glitches you highlighted in your screen shots.
Are you referring to the patches of blue in the first of the automotive shots?
And what is wrong with the second picture? My eye is drawn to the colorful destination out ahead - and I am trying, but I can't see a glitch in this next shot.
Maybe because of economics, I have stretched under-powered hardware to the breaking point for so long, I am just not that sensitive to glitches appearing on the screen from time to time as long as the overall experience is positive. I took a course in digital logic in engineering school, and learned about truth tables, and nand gates. If you dive into the depths of what is going on, it's an absolute technical miracle that we today can have such a fantastic visual experience that was unheard of only 13 years ago when the hottest thing around was Half Life.
Regarding Brent's review - he may be another technical genius like yourself Sam, and if he is a personal friend I apologize for being offensive, but I was not at all impressed with the review - it sounded like a bunch of whining. Frustration will do that to a person - it brings out the whiner in all of us.
But let me just put it all out there, and show my cards. I don't find a damn thing wrong with Carmack's attitude as expressed in Brent's bad-mouthing review. If I were a game developer today, I too would put consoles first above PCs. It's a matter of being a smart businessman. Who is going to pirate your very very expensive game, that you put millions of dollars into making, and who is not going to pirate your game?
It's the honest truth. PC guys are clever and can break the copy-writing. With all the PC guys stealing every game, why wouldn't a developer put the consoles first, and then port the game over later to the PCs, with maybe a few technical upgrades? They didn't even put Treyarch's COD3 on PC. As we found out later, the game was weak, but when the Activision guy said, "They complain that we don't make games for PCs, but they pirate all the games" I couldn't blame him for that point of view.
There isn't a single thing wrong with Carmack saying that - sounds smart to me. Piracy doesn't exist on the consoles, right? Piracy is rampant on the PCs, right? Still, the game developers all have very powerful PCs that they do all the development on, and they themselves would love to play the games at a visual level beyond what a console will do.
Lucky for us!
Go back to my shock two years ago, on this forum, at sales of Modern Warfare 1, when I found out that while the PC sales were a respectable 1 million, the console sales were a whopping 10 X greater! Wow!
Everybody on xfire (shaff are you listening?) was playing Modern Warfare 1 on pirated copies - a game that to me was one of the greatest games ever - and nobody wanted to fork out $50. (Including me, I bought it on ebay for $30.) For crying out loud, guys, you think it's easy to put a game together? The financial outlay is monstrous! To go ahead and pirate everything in sight, and then complain that the console ports to PC are a bit rough around the edges, I can't call that anything other than what it is, a bunch of hypocritical whining.
LOL
Look at Jeff's description of Stalker, and how the last few installments show the improved polish of some serious money put behind the game, once the basement version took off and developed a following.
For sure I will check out Call of Pripyat, after Jeff's discussion. Why wouldn't I? If I have to, I might even buy the game :)
Jeff understands that if I am confused all to hell, and on top of that if I think a game is a little clunky, I'm not going to give it a chance. Yeah, the command console on OF:DR was a bit tricky, but right away the atmosphere was awesome.
And if as Jeff suspects, I end up loving the later Stalkers, I might go back to the first one with extra appreciation, and with a lot more patience.
Back to Rage, I just sent an email to Miles at Valve, raving about Rage, and asking him if any of the Valve guys are playing it. Let's see what he has to say back to me - it might echo what Sam or Brent just said. I doubt it, but even if it did, that wouldn't change my opinion. That's the wonderful thing about opinions - they aren't right or wrong, they just are, and everybody's entitled to have one.
What makes a game great is very subjective (but I'll say it again, frustration is a kill-joy.)
Changing subjects, for a second, I just jumped into Metro 2033, and first off, let me say I was totally wrong about that being depressing. It's really not - and there is some great scenery above ground, and even below ground there is some great lighting, as you had said, Jeff.
I will say this - Moscow is very cold in the winter. That game handles cold as well as BF:BC2 in that chapter on top of the mountain. I was torn between worrying about my gask mask cannisters running out, to being worried about freezing to death before I could kill enough Nazis to get to their camp fires. What a lovely thing to be next to a campfire, and feel my breathing calm down from the hysterical near-death gasping of mere seconds ago! Hahaha.
But you are so right, Jeff, about it being completely linear - totally so - no running off to do any exploring on that game.
But jumping into the very interesting Metro only underscored one of the things that I really appreciate about Rage - the facial models. Take this guy here, one of the random characters spread about in the Rage game. Under his goggles, the guy looks like a real person, right?
That's what the modeling in Rage looks like. By contrast, the Metro modeling is not even in the same ballpark. People looked like little doll figures in a toy shop.
But getting past the shock of the weak facial models, Metro otherwise looked pretty good, and seemed quite interesting. After the first intro, including a tutorial (so welcome after the confusion of Stalker) I looked at the video settings. They had me on High quality, 1680x1050. I moved it up to 1920x1200, and the frames of course dropped. I reduced to Normal quality, but right after that, seeing perhaps some slack in the frame rates, I wanted it to look at least as good as it had a minute before, so I went back up to High quality. Because I can live with 30 fps I kept it there. (Above high, they have Very high and then Ultra high, ala Crysis.) I looked at the flame from the lighter that Jeff had described. Very cool. You rotate, and the flame moves the other way, just like real life. A nice touch, a simple way to light up your Map.
Playing the game - I logged 18 hours straight and I haven't finished yet - I am continuing to get just barely 30fps, and only about 25 in the snow. Still, Metro didn't majorly lag until I rescued the little kid.
All of a sudden - major lag. I said "Woah, what's going on" and then I realized my frames were still okay, just the added weight of the kid on my back was making all my gestures feel as though I was pulling only 15 fps. LOL. You try moving around with a 60 pound kid on your back - it was funny and it was smart game-making. I appreciated it.
I like Metro, and I will play it again when I get my new hardware, at full 2560x1600, and hopefully maxed settings. Maybe I'll play above normal difficulty also at that time. There is hardcore, then ranger, then ranger hardcore. LOL
My main criticism of Metro, as I mentioned above, are the facial models. What I love about Rage, and about the Valve games, and I would add, all the CODs, including the Treyarch titles, is that the people look good - they look like people - especially the Treyarch Russian guy in World at War, who comes back again in Black Ops. I loved that guy, and I love the way he looks, his deeply chiseled face reflecting his hard life, and I love his wonderful Russian voice.
Hagar in Rage, the guy who saves you at the very beginning, has a strange voice - very resonant - but with an overly sincere way of speaking that worries me, like he'll stab me in the back as soon as I turn around. He's too sincere - know what I mean? I didn't really like him much. I liked the Sheriff in Wellspring much better.
On the other hand, the Mayor in Wellspring was a total character, and speaking of characters, the Monster Bash TV guy was an absolute riot
like the carnival barker that he is.
His televised carnival involved whether I could murder every single fresh northern mutant he threw at me, or would they tear me apart. All this to make a richly rewarding tv show that he said would be shown in reruns for years to come, for the wonderful little deranged denizens of the crazy Rage world.
My Ginny would never watch a brutal show like that!
Creeping into a bandit hideout, I heard them talking "Hey did you catch Monster Bash TV the other night?" I guess the baddies really love that show. Of course that particular group is now all deceased, courtesy of yours truly. I didn't catch if they caught my particular episode, since I was too busy sending them all to kingdom come.
That would have been a nice touch. "Hey have you seen the new wanker on Monster Bash - he kicked some major mutant butt - hate to ever run into that bloke!"
Getting back to Metro, by comparison with Rage, I would have to knock off 10 points on whatever final score I gave the game, because the models all look like ceramic statues. There is way too much shine on the faces, and there are way too few triangles in the facial model texture maps. Maybe that reflects a stylized Russian way of doing things - like the renderings in a fairy tale book - or maybe they just don't have any good facial artists and modelers.
By the way, here's an image I just found of Metro - see if you can spot any kids - and I found it very interesting that the comments under the image, mentioned that Metro came from the same guys who did Stalker. Jeff is that correct? It certainly has the same Chernobyl-type preoccupation with nuclear fallout.
Maybe unlike glitches, my area of pickiness is more on facial models, perhaps because family member Miles' main focus areas are modeling and animating. He had a major impact on animating all of L4D, but on L4D2, he spent more time on modeling, including major time on Nick and on the Coach. Does anybody doubt that Nick and the Coach look like real people?
So on Metro, where every character, when they remove their gas mask, looks to me like a doll, then that diminishes the impact of the game, despite whatever brilliant graphical effects are being presented, and whatever glitch-free gameplay exists.
But don't misunderstand me, I do like Metro.
So what I am saying, is that if a game like Rage just feels great, with incredibly good modeling, almost Valve quality lip-syncing, and filled with interesting character types, then when I jump in my car, with its very enjoyable engine purr and roar when I hit the throttle, and set out to move to a new adventure, if a few glitches or pops appear on the other-wise gorgeous landscape rendering in front of me, I am just not bothered that much by it.
I didn't notice any Rage glitching on my nvidia card presentation. Maybe there was some glitching going on, but we already know that I can't tell 30 fps from 40 fps, so my eyes, I guess, have a different kind of sensitivity to yours, Sam - probably not in the same ballpark.
Again, just what is wrong with the second automotive picture above - apparently I can't see the glitch when it's right in front of me in a still image. Haha.
Switching again back to Metro, I could get into other things about the game, that might have been a bit weak, but I have to hand Metro major props for original story, good monsters, having children in the game, and for adding puzzles and challenges, and even fake solutions (like planks across obstacles which don't carry your weight, and librarian monsters who keep you distracted by wanting to play with you, to the point of sometimes killing you, as you are trying to follow your map pointer) to keep things interesting.
I expended almost all my ammo to kill the first librarian, coming out from my little cubby hole to fire away, waiting for him to pop back up, wondering if my gask mask supply would hold out for this side adventure, and then he finally succumbed. I thought, "Wow, seriously, that was REALLY hard. I don't have all that many bullets left." I went through the back steel gate, around the corner, and per usual, to my absolute consternation, he popped up again through the hole in the floor. I thought, "Holy sh*t, there are two of them."
I realized then that I wasn't supposed to try to kill them, I was supposed to either calm them down by backing away, until they lose interest, or hide in the cubby hole from the first guy whose curiosity knows no bounds. I thought - "What is the game telling me to do - where am I supposed to be going by this map pointer?" It was challenging.
Later there was another librarian type, but smaller, and darker in coloration. He just wouldn't let me alone, killing me several times, so when I re-spawned, I decided to try 5 shots in the head with my new sniper pistol, switching to AK when he was right on top of me. He died very quickly.
I thought to myself, with a great deal of satisfaction, "Well okay then, it was okay to kill that SOB!"
But back to the models. Comparing Metro to Rage, the Rage models are exceptional - very close to Valve quality. They are just absolutely excellent models and not just a dozen - there must be 50 or 60 distinct personalities spread out among all those towns.
Here's that guy who likes to play that scary game of stabbing a knife into the table between your fingers. This time around, I'll be fooling around with all this kind of side stuff, including the card playing:
Of all the characters around the game, of course I know many of them are the same, with different clothing. My fave Ginny is probably also Friday, with gas mask, and probably also the girl next to the banjo player upstairs at Subway City, the girl with the pilot's flight helmet, and ultra mod beatnik poetry reciting clothing. I think she's an absolute trip in her choice of psychedelic styling. If I were the banjo player, she'd be my girlfriend too!
We're just never going to agree on this title.
Contrary to you naysayers, I personally hope Rage achieves major financial success for id. I would like nothing more than for them to develop and release their next console game called Rage 2, with another PC port, at least as good in quality as this one.
By then I certainly hope it will run on ati cards at least as well as Rage is running on my 8800. If not, I would hate to see myself turn into a Carmack hater, the new game, Rage2, running like ass on my 7000 card. If that happened, not even another appearance from Ginny would save the game for me.
So that's my rebuttal. I'm sure I won't have the last word, lol. I still say, play the game Kevin, on your nvidia card. I will guarantee the experience for you.
And while you're at it, turn up digital vibrance. I guarantee you'll see something remarkable happen on your shiny new 24" Dell. (It will explode!) And regarding your cpu, if you take the plunge, good luck with those 6 cores. More cores, and more power to you!
Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. October 2011 @ 02:50
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AfterDawn Addict
7 product reviews
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21. October 2011 @ 02:32 |
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It's not that I don't trust you, but I will be trying the game before I buy it. I have to see it first. If it's entertaining enough(probably), and nearly glitch free, then I will take the plunge ;)
The Six core is definitely first on my list. I need it for certain processes badly. Plus I'm an upgrade freak. And I believe the six core beast, will hold me over for at least 6 - 8 months. And if AM3+ has matured enough come June - July, I'll consider a small build. Maybe by then I'll have a secondary job :( I'd really like one before christmas. I love buying gifts for my family. Yes, it's an overrated holiday, but I can't help myself LOL!
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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21. October 2011 @ 03:46 |
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Yeah, six cores should last you a while.
Hey Kevin, if you take the plunge and buy Rage, my guarantee stands. I once bought a game for Shaff, just for the fun of it - it's time I did something like that for you, as you say, in the spirit of Christmas, and to celebrate a big sale I made a while back, and for my Karma.
So I'll go past my full guarantee. If you don't like the game, you'll get all your money back from me, but if you LOVE the game, you'll still get half your money back from me. :)
You'll get more money by hating the game, but I trust your honest opinion. Since it's optimized for nvidia, your 260 should turn you into a Rage lover. LOL
One of the things you'll enjoy about the game, I think, are the car races.
The races are friggin' FUN FUN FUN. (Stadium radio announcers, little people spread out everywhere waving arms and cheering, very satisfying rumble of engines.)
I read one review that said, for a shooter, there was a very solid car dynamic in the game. I played only the bare minimum of races, because I'm not so great at driving with a keyboard, but this next time through I'll play every race I can.
We'll be hearing Christmas music pretty soon, that's for sure. I don't know if Christmas is an over-rated holiday or not, but if buying presents gives you pleasure, and if it gives your family and friends pleasure to receive your gifts, then for sure, take pleasure where you can find it, lol.
Rich
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7 product reviews
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21. October 2011 @ 04:53 |
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Nice screen shot! You're right about that. I'm a sucker for racing! I should probably try Dirt eh?
That's a very generous offer Rich. But I can't accept any charity :p I really appreciate the thought though. My WD1001FALS drive(Currently OS drive) isn't as fast as I remember it to be. I'm definitely missing my Velociraptor. It's half tempting to forget the six core for now, and go with an SSD. I'm sure I'd see performance increases across the board ;)
To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question! |
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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21. October 2011 @ 04:59 |
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LOL
Okay, Kevin. My blatant attempt to get at least one guy on my side, has failed miserably, haha.
Yes, I recall that Sam has at least one SSD for his O/S and can maybe give you some guidance in that area.
Jeff, I went back to some notes on Metro 2033, and you had said force the vsynch, which maybe turns off some 3d vision feature and helps fps by about 10 - sounds good. Then you mentioned FOV, and you mentioned it again in a recent post. Specifically, what about FOV. Do you adjust it down, up, or what?
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15 product reviews
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21. October 2011 @ 11:34 |
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Well, I feel uneasy buying the game now. id Software isn't getting a red cent til I've tested the game on my hardware(middle finger). And since I plan on an Ati card in the near future, that makes me even more nervous. Thanks guys for nudging me in the right direction. ;)
Well the game is technically flawed but the game itself is very good. If you want to try it, I'd say definitely go for it. Don't let our elitist gripes stop you from having fun :P
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I'm not taking back one single word of my review. But I sympathize with those who have had problems running the game - like I said, frustration is a total kill-joy, and if the game has been ruined for you guys, then that's such a pity.
I agree Rich, Rage is a good game, but the technical flaws are so great on the PC it stops many players from enjoying it at all. I'm glad you enjoyed it, because I'm being just a bit harsh on id :)
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There isn't a single thing wrong with Carmack saying that - sounds smart to me. Piracy doesn't exist on the consoles, right? Piracy is rampant on the PCs, right? Still, the game developers all have very powerful PCs that they do all the development on, and they themselves would love to play the games at a visual level beyond what a console will do.
Most consoles are pretty easily pirated Rich :P Of course you will always have a way larger amount of pirating on the PC, but it's only because of ease of use. Services like Steam go a long way in driving PC sales though. I don't know of any console services anywhere near that.
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Look at Jeff's description of Stalker, and how the last few installments show the improved polish of some serious money put behind the game, once the basement version took off and developed a following.
For sure I will check out Call of Pripyat, after Jeff's discussion. Why wouldn't I? If I have to, I might even buy the game :)
Jeff understands that if I am confused all to hell, and on top of that if I think a game is a little clunky, I'm not going to give it a chance. Yeah, the command console on OF:DR was a bit tricky, but right away the atmosphere was awesome.
And if as Jeff suspects, I end up loving the later Stalkers, I might go back to the first one with extra appreciation, and with a lot more patience.
I'm still not entirely sure if it's your type of game Rich but I really think it's worth a try. I never liked Stalker until one of my friends showed me some later parts of the game. I now have over 40 hours in every installment XD
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By the way, here's an image I just found of Metro - see if you can spot any kids - and I found it very interesting that the comments under the image, mentioned that Metro came from the same guys who did Stalker. Jeff is that correct? It certainly has the same Chernobyl-type preoccupation with nuclear fallout.
This is true, some of the Stalker team did indeed help with the art direction and design of Metro. It was largely a support/advisory role though. It was nice to see such an underground-ish development team recognized for their artistic talents. Stalker is extremely eerie if you've ever seen photos of the area around Chernobyl. They capture the look so perfectly, it triples the freaky of the game. So I have a strong feeling the Stalker team was also able to contribute significantly to the look and feel of Metro 2033.
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Jeff, I went back to some notes on Metro 2033, and you had said force the vsynch, which maybe turns off some 3d vision feature and helps fps by about 10 - sounds good. Then you mentioned FOV, and you mentioned it again in a recent post. Specifically, what about FOV. Do you adjust it down, up, or what?
Ideally for most games your FOV should be 90 degrees. Low FOVs also have a negative impact on graphics because their narrow viewing angle causes the view to be "zoomed in". When you zoom in really close to a texture, it usually gets uglier, so the same logic follows here. Even this slight amount of zoom can make a large difference.
Metro's strongest graphical asset is its lighting. True, the human models are a bit stylized/cartoony, but the differed lighting is a sight to behold. I'm not sure if differed lighting kicks in at regular high but in very high it absolutely does. Differed lighting means that the game can draw an almost infinite amount of light sources and shadows. Also, Metro has fairly nice textures
I also had the problems with the Librarians Rich. lol I think the trick is they don't attack as long as you hold their gaze. There are some similar monsters that aren't so willing to leave you alone though so you have to be careful lol.
Oh and on the shiny faces haha I've thought about that too. I figured that after 20 years underground, nobody's had a proper shower for a while :P That's a lot of oily skin XD
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. October 2011 @ 11:49
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. October 2011 @ 18:47 |
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It's broken email notifications time! Alright, lots of posts to read :(
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