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Why is Memorex so bad for burning 360 games?
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huntr
Newbie
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17. December 2009 @ 19:02 |
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Stumbled onto this thread accidentally and became intrigued. I have cataloged every disc I have ever burned so I looked up the first DVD-R's that were burned and played them in my Philips stand-alone and on my computer. I always bought what ever was on sale at Best Buy so I could save money. Every disk I tried worked perfectly. All were burned in a space from October "04 to March '05. All were burned at 2x or 4x.
They include:
Verbatim MCC 01RG20
Fuji TYG 02
Memorex CMC MAG AE1
TDK TTG 01
Philips CMC MAG AE1
I got tired of trying different disks and came to the conclusion that while there very well may be some difference that can be measured by some software, it is irrelevant to me. If the stored information is that important, I'll just re-burn to a new disc every few years. After all, I can afford it what with the money I've saved.
P.S. Somebody is going to have to explain how you "wear out" a laser by aiming it at poor quality dyes. I can understand focusing motors wearing out searching for legible data but the laser?
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Cubesteak
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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17. December 2009 @ 19:16 |
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According to that article, Mitsubishi does discs for verbatim. So is it safe to say that anything made by Mitsubishi is ok seeing as how Mitsu's name is also listed in the memorex category? Also, HP, Imation, Nexxtech and probably a few others. Could it be that some of these people are getting the mitsubishi manufactured Memorex and Sony's, thus the reason why some are great and some are not?
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Member
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17. December 2009 @ 20:05 |
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For those who don't mind them:
Click
Amazon is having a lightning deal on the Memorex DL DVD 50 packs an hour from now. Probably not worth its own post, but I'll probably grab them (for when others want a copy, Verbs only for my personal drives)
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AfterDawn Addict
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17. December 2009 @ 20:43 |
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Originally posted by RMF:
I buy my discs from a site which lists the manufacturer ID of each batch so I always know what I'm getting.
We know what you're getting too. Lower quality discs. If they work for you, great. They work for me too. But they are still crap discs.
Originally posted by Cubesteak:
Could it be that some of these people are getting the mitsubishi manufactured Memorex and Sony's, thus the reason why some are great and some are not?
Quite possibly, sir.
Originally posted by Cubesteak:
According to that article, Mitsubishi does discs for verbatim. So is it safe to say that anything made by Mitsubishi is ok seeing as how Mitsu's name is also listed in the memorex category?
I haven't checked that, but I'm willing to bet Mitsubishi makes one specific type of disc for the "Singapore made Verbatims", and make for Memorex and others, a less expensive type (or various types since there is no consistency) of disc, seeing as to how that's what these other companies offer: A less expensive alternative.
Originally posted by huntr:
P.S. Somebody is going to have to explain how you "wear out" a laser by aiming it at poor quality dyes. I can understand focusing motors wearing out searching for legible data but the laser?
The laser is your eyes.
The data on the disc is any classic style RPG.
The Verbatim is a 1080p hi-def TV.
The Memorex is a standard def TV.
You can read the text in the RPG game on both TVs, but on the hi-def, you can see it much easier than on the regular TV, causing your eyes to not have to work as hard. The harder a mechanical device works, the sooner it'll break down. The same reason Taxi Cabs & Cop cars don't have the same life-span as regular cars (they work harder).
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ddp
Moderator
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17. December 2009 @ 22:05 |
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moved to correct forum as not a xbox360 general discussion issue.
RMF, talk to doc ty & he'll set you straight about memorex.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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18. December 2009 @ 11:06 |
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A disc cannot wear out a laser (with the "exception" of some very early Pioneer 2X DVD-R drive models that would go into perpetual burn if they tried to record a 4X DVD-R discs. It wasn't the disc that caused the problem but the aging or overheating of the laser that never turned off. Pioneer issued a firmware update that fixed the problem.) The analogy about eyes, high definition, and taxicabs is bizarre. The laser is a diode at a fixed wavelength that does not change. A reading drive will scan a disc only so many times before it gives up, and the pickup head focusing unit does all the work--not the diode.
Mitsubishi does not manufacture discs except, perhaps, on a test bed. They manufacture dye, and they own the Verbatim brand. The manufacturing is done by CMC, Moser Bayer, and a plant in Singapore for the DL discs. All of these plants use Mitsubishi's stampers.
Memorex outsources from mostly from CMC and Ritek with some production going to Moser Bayer (a company very difficult to work with), and Prodisc. In the days when huge orders would overwhelm CMC's plant, CMC would sometimes fill the orders with production that had used Mitsubishi stampers or Philips stampers; but mixed discs never went into the same spindles even though the packaging was the same. As long as discs met A-grade specifications and the packaging was all-Memorex, Memorex would accept them. No major brand I know of accepts anything less than A-grade under its own name from the factories. (There was a case of one major brand accepting B-grade CD-Rs, but they came up with a different brand to sell them at rock-bottom prices. That was the only way they could meet their volume commitment because sales of their own high-priced, respectable brand were too low.)
As for DVD+R DL discs, Verbatim sticks with the older production method of photo-polymer production for 8X discs. This is expensive because there are extra steps and one polymer layer is wasted after use. For 8X DVD+R DL discs, Ritek has moved to a new method developed by Ricoh using an "inverse stack" that uses fewer production steps, wastes no parts, and is better for reducing contaminants. The IS process is cheaper, and Ritek passes the cost savings on to their customers who, in turn, pass them on to consumers. Unfortunately, not all 8X DVD+R DL drives have firmware added to record to these IS discs; and no 4X DVD+R DL drives will work with them either unless a drive manufacturer issues a firmware update--not likely. You need a new drive to take advantage of them.
Recommendation from digitalfaq are nearly worthless since half the information found there is out of date, erroneous, misleading, or simply bizarre. The other half is correct. If you can tell the difference, the site is worth a read; but most people are not optical engineers by trade, so they mistakenly take that information as gospel.
What I'd like to know is how a disc that works year after year, has low intial error rates, and keeps reasonably low error rates can be considered "crap" simply because of its brand name.
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wanttono
Junior Member
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18. December 2009 @ 12:10 |
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Now this was a piss poor discussion you guys should re evaluate your debate
I am usually impressed by this forum and it's maturity .. but am very disappointed by this thread
thanks to mod for taking over
F
now someone prove my point by flaming me !
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UMDJ
Member
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28. December 2009 @ 05:26 |
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im really glad JoeRyan posted what he did, i never did understand why people said that memorex or anything other than VERBS for that matter, will wear out your laser faster. i always thought that it would read or wouldnt read, depending on the power to the laser, which is set, but ofcourse giving the laser more power(which is manually done by the user) will decrease the lifespan
this is another post i found here that i believe is inline with JoeRyan, despite it being about PS2 the point in general is still the same
http://www.cdrom-guide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162027
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 28. December 2009 @ 05:29
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Junior Member
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29. December 2009 @ 10:55 |
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Memorex is excellent .... if you want coasters!!!! I've bought them 3 times, coz they were so cheap and coz there was nothing else available.
EVERY frikking time at least 3 out of 10 ended up completely unusable, out-of-box. last time it was 2 out of 5, do the math.
DON'T EVER GET MEMOREX, IT SUCKS!!!!
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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30. December 2009 @ 13:31 |
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Bonkabonk--
Your "newbie" status means you probably have not been following the AfterDawn discussions regarding disc/drive compatibility and firmware issues. If you list the drive you are using, the version of firmware it has, and the MID code of the particular Memorex discs you are using, someone is likely to point out that either the firmware version or the type of disc is incompatible. I did the math, as you suggested, and the rate indicates that the discs you are using are probably not 8X DVD+R DL discs because the failure rate is typically higher than 40%. That's because of different manufacturing method used by Ritek for 8X +R DL discs; and Memorex uses Ritek as its DL supplier.
In order to find the cause of the problem it is helpful to provide more information than failure rates. There are scores of variables in recording discs. The most important are the MID code of the medium itself (that tells the manufacturer or at least the owner of the stamper, the type of disc, its rated speed, and the dye used), the recording drive, the firmware of the recording drive, and the playback unit. Other factors are the recording software, the recording speed, the processor, and many other, lesser variables. The issue is far more complicated than identifying some brand and tarnishing it.
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Member
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30. December 2009 @ 21:16 |
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Joe Ryan I've read your posts and it definitely looks like you know what your talking about, so im not trying to argue with you or anything, i just wanted to post my experience with memorex. I've used memorex before for many different things such as audio cd's, movies, games, etc. In my personal experience with memorex they always worked fine when it came to audio cd's or movies and I never really had any problems using them for that, But when it came to games i did sometimes have problems. I used to backup my games for ps2, and when I first started doing it I went out to buy some blank media. I didn't have much money at the time, so i went to walmart to grab some. They had a good deal on memorex (dvd-r) so i figured I'd pick a pack of that up. after getting them home i read up a little bit online, and made a backup of a game i beleive it was suikoden iv, im not 100% sure though. anyways so i pop it in the ps2 to boot it up and it starts. It took a little while longer to load but I got to the data select screen and started a new file. The opening scene starts to play
and its running smooth for a while but then starts skip a little bit. After that i start playing the game and notice when im walking around towns and stuff whats up ahead isn't loading fast enough. for example if there was a group of people standing in the distance i wouldnt be able to see them until i got right near them then they would load. so i figured maybe i burned it too slow or fast or maybe it was just a bad disc. so i did it a couple of more times and was running into the same problems. It was bugging me a lot so i checked online to see what the problem could be. Online, people were saying to not use memorex and try a more expensive brand of media. so i went and picked up a pack of sony dvd-r's, reburned the game, and the first time it worked fine. I didn't have any of the issues i was having before and it ran just like my original. There were some games that would work fine on memorex and others that wouldn't if they didnt, i would just use a sony instead, and most of the time it would fix the problems. After a while, backups started not working right or not loading at all to the point where no matter which media i used, it wouldnt work. so i figured it had to be my laser dying on me. Original games on the other hand would still work fine and load instantly, but backups would not. so thats what happened with memorex for me, and sony would usually fix the problems i was having with games that i burnt to memorex. I always wondered why it wouldnt read the backups anymore but would still read originals fine, you said that a disc can not wear out a laser, can it weaken at all or something? or do you know anything that could have played a part or caused it to not want to read backups anymore? Also i still have some of the backups so if you want any info on them i can give you some.
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AfterDawn Addict
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31. December 2009 @ 10:43 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
As long as discs met A-grade specifications and the packaging was all-Memorex, Memorex would accept them.....
What I'd like to know is how a disc that works year after year, has low intial error rates, and keeps reasonably low error rates can be considered "crap" simply because of its brand name.
So because you've had luck with Memorex means the VAST number of complaints across the web are now null and void? Is there just some huge conspiracy theory against Memorex?
If we have to choose between
- Memorex uses sub par media
or
- Everyone who is complaining is wrong and only needs a new burner / firmware upgrade
Which do you think is easier to believe?
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ddp
Moderator
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31. December 2009 @ 22:56 |
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Quote:
Memorex uses sub par media
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scum101
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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1. January 2010 @ 02:04 |
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nicely put.. I'm not an optical engineer.. I repair consoles.. or used to before the abortion called the 360 turned op..
Joe has nothing but my respect but in this case he is wrong.. bad media can and does damage drives.. a poor disk forces the laser to run at a higher average output which as things aren't made to last reduces it's effective lifespan.. there are a few other factors come into play.. as a pure electronics engineer I AM qualified to comment.. if the laser struggles to get a reliable focus on the disk tracks it hunts increasing the current through the eye shift focus coils.. and as anybody with a little ps2 laser rebuild knowledge knows a few shorted turns in those coils is death.
so bad disks DO cause early laser failure.
anybody care to explain how a memorex disk will not play while a verb from the same iso on the same burner will? .. yeah.. different manufacturing strategy.. use verbs for your 360 or get ready to pay Ł15 for a new laser off a nice bloke in Leeds. not f-in rocket science.. dvd-rom drives are like burners.. they favour certain types of dyes and disks. I thought we sorted this discussion 7 years ago with G05 8x disks for the xbox1.. but apparently not. idiots still want to save pennies apparently while not counting the non workers and factoring them in when they have a no read no play crash console....
Bottom line is this.. we don't care why they work and to be honest all the talk won't change the fact.. what is known to work guaranteed every time is the wat to go.. to make a reliable 360 playable burn you need verbs and a decent modern burner.. want me to put up scans on my pioneer 116d vs my nec nd3550?
the nec does better burns on the same memorex 16x+r with less p1 and jitter errors checked with cd-speed but the 360 won't read them whereas the same media on the pioneer with a far higher jitter and p1 error rate reads just fine...... now then.. what say you?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. January 2010 @ 02:16
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AfterDawn Addict
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1. January 2010 @ 13:25 |
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Originally posted by scum101:
I thought we sorted this discussion 7 years ago with G05 8x disks for the xbox1.. but apparently not.
Boy, it has been quite awhile. I'm thinking back to when the modchips first came out for the PS2. If I recall right, wasn't the g04's THE media to use. And then the g05's came out and things started to go haywire?
edit... Oh, and Happy New Year to all of you guys!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. January 2010 @ 13:27
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scum101
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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1. January 2010 @ 21:40 |
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It was.. the ps2 v2-v5's liked the G04 dye disks at 4x .. the later versions v6 and up were less picky or the G05 8x improved... one or the other. I found Ridata's to be the best of the bunch on the samsung 605b xbox drives.. and arita 8x-r pinks burned at 8x as well to be the ones most ps2's preferred..
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phil85
Newbie
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2. January 2010 @ 17:21 |
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im new to all this, just had my 360 flashed and since then after googling everything i could about backing up games i found this is the most useful place to be.
i noticec everybody says to use verbatims...i was even told that for some reason ONLY the ones from hong kong would work.
i found that bulkpaq are a good disc to burn to for the 360 as a cheaper alternative, no skipping and for me so far a 100% burn rate with no spare coasters on my computer desk
i do burn them at 1x mostly tho, even though its a 40 minute wait to put it onto a disc but i'd say the slower the better
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Moderator
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2. January 2010 @ 18:17 |
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Originally posted by phil85:
i found that bulkpaq are a good disc to burn to for the 360 as a cheaper alternative, no skipping and for me so far a 100% burn rate with no spare coasters on my computer desk
i do burn them at 1x mostly tho, even though its a 40 minute wait to put it onto a disc but i'd say the slower the better
Bulkpaq is a name that makes my blood boil, even to this day; here's what i will say about my experiences with Bulkpaq - fake discs no less ~ http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/193298 - just have a careful read thru the first post in that link. And this one futher explains my hatred for Bulkpaq ~ http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/193298/1038963
/steps away from the PC before all the Bulkpaq memories come back to haunt me.
As to Memorex (and whilst i can't comment on Memorex used on xbox 360's as my 360's aren't modded) i can most certainly vouch for CMC Mag M01 discs that i've used in the thousands for movies for a few years now, they're excellent discs, though mine are all in the Maxell guise, not Memorex. Nothing against Memorex in that statement, it's just that the Maxell i bulk bought for quite a time were RICOHJPNR03 and over time they started appearing as both RICOHJPNR03 and CMC MAG M01. They both work equally well in my burners/players.
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. January 2010 @ 11:29
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Junior Member
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2. January 2010 @ 21:34 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
Bonkabonk--
Your "newbie" status means you probably have not been following the AfterDawn discussions regarding disc/drive compatibility and firmware issues. If you list the drive you are using, the version of firmware it has, and the MID code of the particular Memorex discs you are using, someone is likely to point out that either the firmware version or the type of disc is incompatible. I did the math, as you suggested, and the rate indicates that the discs you are using are probably not 8X DVD+R DL discs because the failure rate is typically higher than 40%. That's because of different manufacturing method used by Ritek for 8X +R DL discs; and Memorex uses Ritek as its DL supplier.
In order to find the cause of the problem it is helpful to provide more information than failure rates. There are scores of variables in recording discs. The most important are the MID code of the medium itself (that tells the manufacturer or at least the owner of the stamper, the type of disc, its rated speed, and the dye used), the recording drive, the firmware of the recording drive, and the playback unit. Other factors are the recording software, the recording speed, the processor, and many other, lesser variables. The issue is far more complicated than identifying some brand and tarnishing it.
Joe,
It's like you're saying: "What, your ball point pen fails you 40% of the time? Well, of course since you don't hold that particular brand in your LEFT hand! Of course it's gonna fail if you write right-handed, EVERYBODY knows THAT!"
Feel me?
it seems others have respect for your knowledge regarding dvd-discs and whatever. That's really great, and good for you, but ANY product that has a failure rate of 40 percent is ridiculous and is basically the same as a scam artist.
Your "senior" status does NOT preclude you from saying silly things. On the contrary, your logic in this matter is flawed.
It is NOT I who is responsible for Memorexes dumb production methods, but the CEO of that company. if the Memorex CEO is so lousy at his/her job that he chose a sucky production company, then surely HE is to blame for that, not me.
Therefor, I as a consumer have every right to tarnish whatever product that fails 30-40% of the time.
Your reasoning is kinda iffy since you pose that Memorex is a good product, but you imply that it's me who's at fault here because I've been using them in a wrong way? Come on!! If all the other brands don't have such ridiculously high failure rates, but rather close to zero percent, maybe 1 in 25 or so, why can't memorex?
It's not like it's a diesel vs. gasoline difference here. I've checked that box, and it doesn't say: Don't use memorex with this and not that type of burner!
I mean, it's great that you point out the reason for their failure, but I really don't care for your implications here.
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. January 2010 @ 21:44
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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3. January 2010 @ 10:24 |
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bhetrick--It is easier to believe the world is flat than to believe that we can't fall off an orb. That doesn't change the facts. Memorex only uses A-grade production from several suppliers. I've seen the specification requirements, and every test must meet or exceed DVD Forum and DVD+RW Alliance specifications. CMC Magnetics is the largest supplier, and the production comes from Lin-Kuo Factory II, the same building and the same people who manufacture Verbatim DVD-R, DVD+R, and CD-R discs. Japanese brand drives typically do not support many non-Japanese branded discs on their first release to market. This is a political issue that hurts consumers. Firmware updates almost always add Taiwanese branded discs when they are issued (Toshiba and Matsushita are usually slow in adding firmware updates). The fact that many people have problems with CMC, Ritek, or Prodisc is usually due to the fact that they have not updated firmware to include more media ID codes beyond the few that came with their drives. Ritek tried to solve this problem by politicking to get their head to be voted to direct the DVD Forum. That did help, and it may have gotten Ritek the Hitachi Maxell contract three years ago. Is their some "conspiracy"? It sometimes seems like it--Sony brought NEC into the Optiarc group to pull them out of their supporting Toshiba's HD-DVD; so, yes, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes trickery taking place that often comes at consumers' expense.
cky4987--The symptoms you describe sound like poor recordings, and they could be poor simply because your recording drive may not be compatible with the discs your recorded. The Memorex failed right away. The Sony worked initially, but because all discs deteriorate at a slow rate in time, they may have exceeded the threshold of error detection after a period of time and now give you trouble. On the other hand, your game drive may not be in the best shape. It can read DVD-ROM discs whose aluminum mirror layer reflects more light than recordable discs and whose sharply molded pits have far better geometry than dark marks in dye that simulates pit edges. If the discs you have copied play better in a different system, that would indicate that the problem may be in the drive you have.
scum101--a recording laser diode changes power in multiple steps when it is calibrating itself to a particular disc/dye combination. A playback laser does not. You described the pickup head that is a combination of the laser diode, the tracking system, the optical lens, and other moving parts. While it is true that these other parts do more work tracking a difficult-to-read data groove, the laser diode does not use any more power. It may be on longer, but its power output remains the same.
The question about why certain drives do not play certain discs that are well within specifications has always been a puzzling one. An engineering group I worked with at Kodak in the early days of CD-R could never figure out why Panasonic single-beam CD-R players had difficulty reading Kodak CD-Rs, even calibration models that were hand selected to be as close to perfect as possible in those days. The Matsushita engineers could not figure it out either. A change in diode suppliers on the drive side and a change in speed ratings (different stamper, different dye, different formulation) eliminated the problem--but to this day no one can explain it. Although Memorex and Verbatim DVD discs are made in the same factory to the same specifications, they use different stampers (which means groove geometry is different) and different suppliers for the same type of dye (azo-cyanine). The geometry alone can account for great differences in performance for a drive tuned to one disc but not to the other.
bonkabonk--Sony makes wonderful televisions. Plugging them into a 220 volt mains socket will destroy them 100% of the time. Does that make them a lousy product? The destruction comes from incompatible voltage. If a Memorex discs with a CMCMag MID regularly fail in a particular drive with a particular firmware, than any other brand using the same MID code is extremely likely to fail in the same way, whether it is Imation, HP, Philips, TDK, Sony, or Maxell. The issue is the improper use of laser power by the drive simply because the drive does not recognize the MID code and has no instructions on what power and what pulse rate to apply. This is NOT the fault of the user. It is the result of a drive manufacturer rushing a product to market without spending the time and money to develop firmware settings for a multitude of discs on the market--even ones with some of the highest market shares. The Japanese brands--Taiyo Yuden, the only one left who is making good discs in Japan; Verbatim, made by CMC and Moser Bayer (except for the DL discs made in Singapore); Sony, made in Taiwan except for some made by TY; and Maxell, generally made by Ritek although some are made by TY--are included in a first release firmware, but many Taiwanese MID codes are pointedly excluded until a firmware update. There is also marketing/sales ignorance. For months Wal-Mart was selling an Emerson DVD/VHS recorder combination that could only record 4X DVD-R discs; but the only discs in the stores were 8X, which meant that every disc a customer bought to go with his brand new recorder would fail. Most of the sales were Memorex, and Wal-Mart blamed Memorex. But Wal-Mart also blamed Maxell, TDK, and Fuji, too, without telling any manufacturer that he was not the only one. I know the customer support technicians at those brands, and I approached Funai, the drive manufacturer, to get a firmware update. Emerson used it. Sharp, who sold the identical model with a different face plate and model number, told me that they just expected customers to buy the next model. (The Emerson firmware worked for the Sharp model, of course; and I informed Wal-Mart and the support technicians to use that firmware update to solve their customer problems--at least until incompatible 16X came out.) Sharp didn't care about their video recorder customers at all, but the blame went to the disc brands, not to Wal-Mart (which kept selling 8X discs for a 4X recorder) or to the drive manufacturers. This kind of stupidity hurts consumers, and too often it hurts the reputations of brands that are not at fault either. I don't believe that I implied that you were at fault. I'm sorry if you took it that way. A "perfect" drive can produce a coaster from a "perfect" disc if it applies the wrong recording strategy. Consumers should not be expected to know that and should not suffer from those kinds of incompatibilities. Unfortunately, the pace of progress and the politics and marketing blunders behind certain moves end up penalizing consumers. I don't want to see fingers pointed at either the user or an innocent party. I have enough years of experience in the design, manufacturing, testing, marketing, and application of storage media to know what goes on in the background; and I only comment on issues when I think that my experience can help posters here at AfterDawn and acquit innocent brands of media or drives from misdirected accusations.
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Junior Member
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3. January 2010 @ 14:06 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
bonkabonk--Sony makes wonderful televisions. Plugging them into a 220 volt mains socket will destroy them 100% of the time. Does that make them a lousy product?
I'm really stumped. Sony TV's don't work in a 220 volt environment??? What?? I've had a Sony TV for years, and I live where there's 220 volt usage. But if you tell me that I have been not really watching broadcasts on it, but rather staring at an exploded screen, simply IMAGINING all those episodes of Lost, 24, Heroes, Prison Break etc. then of course I defer to you. You know what, maybe you're onto something. I already thought that the US getting a black president was a bit of a stretch. Thanks to you, I now know that I've been making that up! All by myself! (albeit with a remarkable consistency....)
Okay, enough with the fun and games, let's say that I accept your rather ridiculous assertion that Sony TVs can't work on 220 volts, EVER (since you know, transformers?? what's that??? never heard of!!!)
let's say I accept that.
It's not that difference!! though.
Products come with a labeled warning about how to use them.
Memorex discs say nothing about anything how not to use them in the most widespread burners in the world, like Philips, HP, or whatever mainline brand you can think of.
Please show me such Memorex label/warning/disclaimer. (and not the general disclaimer either!) Even if, that disclaimer isn't global. I've bought them on 3 continents and none of them had some warning on them about not being able to work with some type of burners
Even if: What kind of product DOES work 60% of the time, and does NOT work the 40%, AND can claim legitimately that it's not at fault? Besides US health care of course, no fair.
If they work 60% of the time is some environment, Memorex clearly intended them to be used in that environment.
Diesel engines don't claim to be usable with gasoline. Not 60%, not 40%, no nothing.
Like you so astutely noticed, 110 voltage appliances (none of them Sony TVs for a European/Asian market) will not work on 220 volts 100% of the time (actually, its NOT 100%, they WILL work, just not for very long)
Originally posted by JoeRyan:
acquit innocent brands of media or drives from misdirected accusations.
Why is that? You got stocks?
Listen up, yo, it's wonderful that you have such a big knowhow about burners and all that. I just see that your logical reasoning is off. Way off. In this case.
MEMOREX IS JUST A SUCKY PRODUCT! Deal with it. or don't
BTW, happy new year to you.
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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AfterDawn Addict
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3. January 2010 @ 16:52 |
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JoeRyan... First let me say that I mean no disrespect.
That being said, I'm sorry that you went through the trouble with all that typing. You telling us that you've seen the spec sheet for Mem's requirements does nothing to change the plain and simple fact that the web is loaded with countless threads detailing people's terrible experience with Memorex discs.
You ever hear the saying "Shit must taste good... a million flys can't be wrong."? Well the same applies here. How can so many users who've had trouble with Memorex be wrong?
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Junior Member
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4. January 2010 @ 00:01 |
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Originally posted by bhetrick:
JoeRyan... First let me say that I mean no disrespect.
That being said, I'm sorry that you went through the trouble with all that typing. You telling us that you've seen the spec sheet for Mem's requirements does nothing to change the plain and simple fact that the web is loaded with countless threads detailing people's terrible experience with Memorex discs.
You ever hear the saying "Shit must taste good... a million flys can't be wrong."? Well the same applies here. How can so many users who've had trouble with Memorex be wrong?
Actually, that analogy is in his favor, rather than against it, since we know that shit tastes like .... shit! ;) ;)
Joe, your basic argument still falls flat: Memorex disc are good products, and the many, MANY users who complain just have been using the wrong burner/laser ... Yah, it just don't make ANY sense. Shouldn't the Memorex people have made a product that could work with MOST, if not ALL lasers? The other brands did that.
Their decision to play it cheap and come up with trash is fully blame-able on them and them alone. We should sue them for malpractice.
I mean no disrespect, but to call them innocent and to defend them like you did, is .....kinda bizarre.
I, for one, like to hear an explanation, and please stop with all the technical specs details. They are beside the point.
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 01:23 |
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Originally posted by bonkabonk:
Shouldn't the Memorex people have made a product that could work with MOST, if not ALL lasers? The other brands did that.
Their decision to play it cheap and come up with trash is fully blame-able on them and them alone. We should sue them for malpractice.
I mean no disrespect, but to call them innocent and to defend them like you did, is .....kinda bizarre.
I, for one, like to hear an explanation, and please stop with all the technical specs details. They are beside the point.
Soo...enough lurking...
The only experience I had with Memorex(actually not Memorex, but the dye they use, CMC.Mag, sold under Imation), it was about 4 years ago. Half of my burns failed with the brand-new NEC firmware, so ever since I bought Verbs/Sony discs. I did flash to a custom firmware later, which improved the burn success,although I only finished that 50 spindle for give away burns.
I understand what Joe is saying. The disc are manufactured, and then the burners are released on the market, but without proper firmware/writing strategies. Which indeed is not the discs manufacturer fault. And since the same discs work flawlessly with some burners/firmware, obviously the discs are not junk.
Some people say "why don't they state on the package or something, don't use with such and such burner...?"...Well, why don't the burner manufacturers put a disclaimer on the burner's package "stock firmware not compatible with Memorex/CMC.Mag discs?", since they know they didn't include CMC.Mag in the firmware?-maybe because they don't give a damn...if people would know the specific burner would not work with the most popular/cost effective discs, they would buy a different burner.
Why doesn't Memorex make discs that work with most burners...I don't think that's how it works...which one came first, the chicken or the egg...is the discs that are already on the market,steady, and the new burners/firmware that change. Is not the disc that is made compatible with all the burners, is vice-versa. The disc is a physical structure, not much you can alter to change compatibility...however, the burner,which is not just a physical unit, but also based on software, that's where you make the changes,make it compatible with the large variety of discs. You don't change your foot to fit the shoe, is the other way around.
So yes, I do believe that lazy firmware development/politics is at fault.
What I do not understand-and maybe Joe has a good explanation...if some firmware/disc combo has a 40%, 60% or whatever rate of success, and since that firmware does not have the proper writing strategies for that particular disc, then what is that 60% success rate based on? Just pure luck? How does it work, the burner just takes a shot in the dark, uses whatever strategy looks close enough and gives it a try?
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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4. January 2010 @ 09:24 |
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cyprusrom--
Thank you for understanding my point. You are absolutely correct: there are defined specifications for the performance of physical media. There are almost none for drives. Drive manufacturers must get samples from disc manufacturers--or from the market, in which case any drives released prior to testing will not work well--to write firmware settings and write strategies. It differs for every manufacturer; even using the same dye (Ciba Geigi is the most popular supplier), discs from different stampers react differently. It is very much like tape recorders: tape manufacturers issue a family of curves specification, and recording engineers use these to set bias and record EQ for different tapes. If their recording heads have a different gap width from those used to establish the curves, they know how to compensate. The specs for tape recorders cover mostly the motors, the heads, and the electronics. It's up to the user to adjust the settings, something that cannot be done with optical drives.
A drive can write a disc without knowing its write strategy, but the recording is seldome a good one. There is room in the ADIP section of DVD+R discs, for example, that allow up to 99 calibration sections in which the drive can write some data at varying power levels to determine which has the best signal-to-noise ratio or power output. Sometimes the selection works well enough for the disc to work, sometimes it doesn't (it's a very small section of the disc in the inner part so that it does not interfere with disc capacity). In most cases the recording is not a good one even if it works, and that is why these discs "fail" later on. The regular accumulation of errors over time puts them over the top much sooner than a well recorded disc.
NEC was once one of the best drive manufacturers to work with. They regularly asked for advanced samples of all MID codes, particularly when speed ratings were increasing and new discs were hitting the market very frequently. Once they aligned themselves with Sony in the Optiarc consortium, communication stopped.
As for logic and sense required by the other posters: 1) explaining complex technical issues while avoiding technical references is not possible; 2) in North America Memorex had over 35% market share in DVD+R and DVD-R sales consistently from 2002 to 2008, the last time I checked the figures. That was more than the next three brands combined. That would not be possible if 60% of the discs failed for "most" users; 3)CMC Magnetics is the largest producer of optical discs in the world. The problem people have with incompatibility is based on the use of a particular MID code, not the brand. If a Memorex/CMC disc does not work in a drive, then neither will a TDK/CMC, HP/CMC, Imation/CMC, Maxell/CMC, or any other brand using the same MID code (except for those discs that work just because the drives self-calibration worked a particular time.) People complain when something does not work. The greater the market share, the more likely there will be complaints. But if the market share remains consistently high over a long period of time, then either a great majority of people are having success or the market is in turmoil with unhappy customers stopping all purchases while being replaced with new customers who are making the "same mistake."
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