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Why is Memorex so bad for burning 360 games?
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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4. January 2010 @ 10:54 |
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Okay, so basically when the burner when does not have the proper writing strategies and only gives "some" successful burns with a certain disc, it kinda "jerry-rigs" those burns, which is a temporary fix(non-technical terms:)!) and is good for a while...
My initial, random successful burns with Imation did fail in about 6 months(most of them;some I never checked them, I guess that much I liked some movies I "backed up")).
Sometimes we have an idea and its validity is fueled by a lot of passion. In a "chiller" state of mind, things start making sense sometimes. I remember four years ago, when I joined AD because my issues with my newly purchased NEC burner(which still goes strong even today!) and my shiny Imations...I used to call them "Memosux" like everyone else, and even though my buddy had maybe one or too fails out of a spindle(probably his fault, multitasking/fast burn), the discs still sucked, in my view. But then a firmware upgrade later,a few thousand posts and hundreds of burns, things look different.
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Junior Member
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4. January 2010 @ 11:27 |
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cyprusrom,
You yourself noted that part of the problem, or weirdness, lies in the fact that MeMoSuXonly works 60-70 percent of the time.
If they would work just 5-10 percent of the time, we'd could have legitimate case of wrong usage. Or, they would work 90-95 percent of the time, we'd could have a legitimate case of "such is life".
But they don't.
So this smells to me like a legitimate case of "BAD, BAD, SUCKY PRODUCT!"
Your other point was who came first. In other words, who should adapt to who?
IDK if MeMoSuX came first or not. you have links? But, this seems a little irrelevant. Whoever is the weakest, will adapt to the other.
To be sure, i don't know the actual failure rate of MeMoSuXdics, I don't have the time, inclination, or the money to properly test that. But my own experience and what i read, tells me it hovers around 40-30 percent.
My original point still stands:
If their failure rate is so high, the choice to continue with a sucky product is entirely theirs, and they are completely to blame for that.
Originally posted by JoeRyan:
there are defined specifications for the performance of physical media. There are almost none for drives.
Oh, really? Says who? You? The person who claims that Sony TV's don't work on 220 voltage? This seems highly unlikely to me, every product has some rules it needs to follow. It just doesn't stand to reason that DISCS would have strict specs (imposed by whom?), but DRIVES/burner do NOT?
Yah rrrright.
And I still RRREALLY would like to know in what part of this planet Sony TVs don't work on 220 voltage. The Magical Kingdom of No Transformers? Provide links, please.
Quote:
1) explaining complex technical issues while avoiding technical references is not possible;
Eeeh, yeah, but kinda beside the point. And just spouting loads of technical unveriable mumbo-jumbo that may impress some, but it seems like an irrelevant shield behind which you wanna hide your shoddy reasoning and bizarre claims about Sony (Talk about "tarnishing some brand" !!!)
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2) in North America MeMoSuX had over 35% market share in DVD+R and DVD-R sales consistently from 2002 to 2008,
says you. proof?
And McDonalds has also a high market share, but we all know it's not good food. We buy it because it's cheap, omnipresent and they have really cool commercials. High market share doesn't say ANYTHING about product quality. See earlier posts for "flies" and "shit"
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If a MeMoSuX/CMC disc does not work in a drive, then neither will a TDK/CMC, HP/CMC, Imation/CMC, Maxell/CMC
Again, says you. Credible links? (Preferably not ones written by yourself...)
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if the market share remains consistently high over a long period of time, then either a great majority of people are having success or the market is in turmoil with unhappy customers stopping all purchases while being replaced with new customers who are making the "same mistake."
See "flies and shit".
IRL, people expect discs to fail, they're cheap, and if they fail, most won't really care, and most people just don't really look, but just do what comes easiest, which is buying the same thing next time, cos its cheapest.
Stupid customers, like high market share, ALSO don't mean anything in regards to high quality.
The world is littered with cheap low quality products, MeMoSuX is no exception. In fact, this is the main reason, GM, Ford and Chrysler lost market share to Japan: They WANTED to make sucky cars, so people would buy a new car every 3 years. MeMoSuX seems to have a similar strategy.
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. January 2010 @ 12:40
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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4. January 2010 @ 12:14 |
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Quote:
cyprusrom,
You yourself noted that part of the problem lies in the fact that Memx only works 60-70 percent of the time.
Yes, it worked 50% of the time or so with the original firmware, for me.Then almost 100% with custom firmware, but I never bought other discs besides that one spindle. But there are a people(including on the first page of this thread), that have close to 100% success rate.How do you figure that? Which means the discs work, provided the burner is supplied with the proper firmware.
"Wrong usage"- that sounds just...wrong, puts a lot of blame on the user, which obviously is not the case.
Quote:
So this smells to me like a legitimate case of "BAD, BAD, SUCKY PRODUCT!"
Your other point was, who came first, so who should adapt to who?
IDK if memx came first or not. you have links? But, this seems a little irrelevant, whoever is the weakest, will adapt to the other.
Nono, this is actually THE MOST relevant point that most people miss. You already have the disc plant/stamp, the discs are already on the market. Then the new burner is born, but is never taught how to speak Memorex(CMC.Mag) language.
Links for what? The discs(not just Memorex, all of them) are on the market already, and they only change so often(4X,8X,16x...), and then you have a burner from every manufacturer coming out every single year.
Just think about it logically...which one changes, or makes sense to change, the physical properties of a disc that is been in the manufacturing for years in a row, has a predetermined stamp, or a drive firmware that is released every year?
Is like dollar bills. They are pretty much the same, they might add some new color, new figures, but the size and main design remains the same. Theses are the discs. The stamp, shape, whatever you want to call it, is set, they adjust and increase the write speed/some dye properties once in so many years, but they pretty much stay the same.
Now you have the wallet manufacturers. They need to design them to fit the dollar bill. Same with the drives, need to have the proper firmware implemented so they can work with the discs already on the market.
Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. January 2010 @ 12:25
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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4. January 2010 @ 12:26 |
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cyprusrom--That's correct. The drive applies a power and pulse it believes is appropriate if it does not have the MID code stored in its firmware memory table. One very critical part is to have the equivalent of very sharp contrast at the edge of a burn mark so that the reflected light stops immediately as if it hit the edge of a pit molded into a DVD-ROM. Too much power causes too big a dark mark with unclear changes from dark to light; too little power makes too small a mark with too little distinction in dark/light. Both cause timing problems defined as "jitter."
bonkabonk--It would help if you would read a posting in its entirety to understand the point. The ratio of Memorex success/fail with its CMC product is identical the success/fail rates of all brands using the same CMC MID code. The same is true for Memorex product using a Ritek or Prodisc medium, just as it is for others.
The medium comes first, then the recording/playback unit. The playback and the medium performance are strictly defined--read the Philips and DVD Forum book standards. Recording is variable, and that is where analogue EQ and bias settings and power ratios and pulse rates come in. You will find this information in the book standards.
A failure rate of 30-40% for a product with the highest market share for 90+ months is highly unlikely. Your reference to car manufacturers is a good point: they lost share; Memorex has not. As for the market shares, consult Santa Clara Consulting for the overall review of the retail and industrial markets, NPD for retail alone. (Memorex is not in the industrial segment.) These are official documents that all retailers use in determining their purchase investments. I don't believe that flies purchase discs. MMIS used to be a good source available to the general public, but that source is no longer available after Larry Lueck's death two years ago.
A disc performs according to its MID code. A different silk-screened label does not change the peformance (unless the silk-screen ink changes tilt, but all manufacturers stick to the same type of ink that works. Only the colors and graphics change.) CMC-manufactured discs that are A-grade quality perform the same whether the label says Memorex, HP, or TDK. A Ford does not become a different car if a Mercedes star is screwed to the hood. All the major brands that purchase from CMC purchase A-grade quality. B-grade goes to no-name brands; and part of CMC's problem is that they are willing to sell B-grade. Companies I know that do not let B-grade out the door under any circumstance are Kodak, Mitsui, and Taiyo Yuden. The first two got out of manufacturing; TY is struggling. (If you want a list of the major A-grade specifications, I can post them; but you already said that facts, oops, I mean technical information, are "beside the point" and might distort an argument.
Other sources for reading: OSTA and Media Sciences. You can also look on AudioDev's website for some solid information on testing specifications. Cinram, a major duplicator, also had some good information regarding specifications and performance related material. I don't know if they still offer that information there. The DVD Forum offers some information about DVD-R and DVD in general. They support all DVD products, DVD-R, DVD-RW, and ram.cfm" class="forum_link" target="_blank">DVD-RAM. You will have to go to the DVD+RW Alliance to get information about that format. Imation once offered "The Optical Media Reference Guide" as a pdf file on the Memorex portion of its site. That was the best source of information written for consumers, but I don't think it is still available. Maybe some AfterDawn readers downloaded it and could make it available to you. Let me know if there are any other particular types of information you would like. Owners of Philips Book standards sign an agreement that they will not divulge the information contained in them in any direct fashion, but they can make general information available in their own words. Since you do not believe anything I say, please consult the sources above because they are based in the Philips standards.
And Happy New Year to you, too.
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 13:12 |
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Alright guys. I see what you're saying. The media was here first and the drive mfr's should be adapting to them. And in many cases they're not.
Myself, I keep my hardware updated. But I'm in a small minority. When it comes to the general public, how many of them know to check for updated firmware. In fact, how many even know what firmware is. They just walk in to their local retailer, pick up a spindle, and expect it to work. And when it doesn't work, some turn to the web, searching for what may be the problem. And what do they find? They find a slew of other's having the same problem. With no easily obtainable information as to the real reason, the general consensus ends up being that Memorex is crap.
So as it stands, in the eyes of the consumer, Memorex is still junk. It's not their Memorex's fault, sure. But if they want to quit being labeled as junk then they'll have to make the first step.
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 13:20 |
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First step and do what? It is impossible to make a disc fit a burner's firmware.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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4. January 2010 @ 13:33 |
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Memorex did not make money selling Memorex drives, but they stayed in the business because the OEM sales groups and firmware engineers at the drive companies courted Memorex business by designing drives that did work with the discs Memorex was buying from CMC, Ritek, Infodisc (mainly rewritable), and Prodisc. Pioneer, Lite-On, LG/Hitachi, and NEC were all very cooperative and supportive. Memorex also put pressure on their media suppliers to send stage samples of new discs and formulations to those drive manufacturers to prepare them. In at least one case a Japanese drive manufacturer failed Taiwanese 4X DVD-R discs--before the discs were even sent! That's why Memorex got more involved in the purchase of drives themselves. Once Sony snuggled up to NEC in the Optiarc consortium, that supplier broke off communication.
That's why consumers ought to be aware of the political games being played behind the scenes that do nothing but cause them problems. It's a nasty business.
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Moderator
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4. January 2010 @ 13:35 |
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I always use to slam Memorex (in my case it was primarily the CMC varieties), my reason was the many thousands (literally) of Nero logfiles i used to solve day in day out for the first year or two of joining here. We don't have many knowledgeable media people here at AD, which is why i'm glad Joe is here, he's posted a shedload of info here for quite a while now, i know even i used to debate quite a few threads with Joe when he first came here, quite strongly as i recall (but hopefully they were all civil, i think they were!).
Anyways, times change, manufacturers change, and i certainly don't keep up with it all and most of my media was bulk bought a long time ago hence why i'm not as au fait with the latest media as i'd like.
The only thing that bothers me with companies like Memorex is that (without researching) you can't guarantee exactly which MID codes you'll get, from tub to tub, however that probably doesn't matter anymore, plus i'm smart enough to keep on top of firmware for burners anyway.
As i say i don't buy Memorex specifially but i would if i could be sure of getting CMC MAG M01, as i've burnt/recopied from obscene amounts of M01 and they're excellent discs, and cheap to boot, i think they're down to about £13 per 100 now (i just need to get a job though, luckily i still have a couple thousand or so blanks in stock to keep me going). I can't comment on other CMC discs as haven't used any, and my knowledge of who makes exactly which Verbatim is rusty.
I appreciate that this thread is about Memorex on xbox 360's thus the discs under discussion would be Dual Layer, just thought it was worth adding my CMC MAG M01 thoughts to the discussion.
Which reminds me, Joe, can you give a rundown of what you know about the current situation with Verbatim and who makes their various discs, if nothing else it's fun watching people shout "CMC don't make my favourite Verbatim discs, it's a lie, it's a lie", though you probably posted an up to date enough summary in one of your other posts.
bonkabonk - yes Joe does give majorly indepth tech info on all things media related, and no we don't all need to know it or even care about such things, but i'm still glad that Joe takes the time to share his knowledge, it's all good stuff. AD certainly doesn't have the amount of people with media knowhow than say, the cdfreaks site, and i concede that strictly speaking, most people shouldn't really even have to care what media works on what burners, etc etc, but that's where Joe comes in, now if only Joe could baseball bat some of the idiots in big business who are responsible for the media 'lottery' that we sometimes get bogged down in :)
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. January 2010 @ 15:12
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 13:37 |
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Quote:
It is impossible to make a disc fit a burner's firmware.
Yes, I understand that. You guys have brought me over from the dark side ;)
So, what can Mem do to break the sterotype of junk media. Maybe something as simple as an easily understandable disclaimer advising people about potential problems using outdated firmware. It could be a simple disc shaped paper insert, written in plain english.
What I'm getting at is I'm past the "Memorex is crap" discussion and I'm on to "don't you think Memorex would want to do something about being labeled as junk" discussion.
See what I'm saying.
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 14:30 |
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Originally posted by bhetrick:
Quote:
It is impossible to make a disc fit a burner's firmware.
Yes, I understand that. You guys have brought me over from the dark side ;)
So, what can Mem do to break the sterotype of junk media. Maybe something as simple as an easily understandable disclaimer advising people about potential problems using outdated firmware. It could be a simple disc shaped paper insert, written in plain english.
What I'm getting at is I'm past the "Memorex is crap" discussion and I'm on to "don't you think Memorex would want to do something about being labeled as junk" discussion.
See what I'm saying.
LOL, okay, all good.
Well, like Joe said, they have been proactive somehow.
It is not easy. Most people, expect a plug'n'play. And that's how it should be. Something indeed needs to be done for the consumer, and coming with a "might not work with your current firmware", like the cigarette companies put the stupid health hazard warning on the packaging,I guess it could be done. Lol, then have some random Walmart employee trying to explain what firmware is for a burner:)
Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!
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Moderator
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4. January 2010 @ 15:14 |
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Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 15:28 |
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Excellent read. Thanks creaky (and also to Joe, of course).
Let me ask this. Is there anywhere we can go to find out the recommended media code for a specific burner?
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Moderator
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4. January 2010 @ 15:32 |
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I don't know about 'recommended' MID codes, but depending on the burner you can usually get at the contents of the firmware, and again depending on the burner you can even tweak the firmware, for instance where you have a particular disc that has, say 4x, 6x, 8x burn speeds and the burner only caters for 4x and 8x, you can 'make it so' by adding 6x to the firmware for that particular MID code..
Here's an example ~
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. January 2010 @ 15:37
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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4. January 2010 @ 16:05 |
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creaky--yes, you were always civil. Some people were not, but I'm Irish and my skin is as thick as my head. The last I heard CMC Magnetics makes Verbatim DVD+R and DVD-R discs and the plant in Singapore makes their DVD+R DL discs. Verbatim tried Moser Bayer for all types, but those discs did not work as well. (Moser Bayer used MCC stampers and Mitsubishi dye; but if the molding of the substrate and the manufacturing processes are not exactly right, the proper materials do not yield the best discs. Besides that, Moser Bayer tends to argue with customers while Taiwanese suppliers bend over backwards to try to please customers.)
bhetrick--the technical people want the best quality possible, but they have to fight salespeople who insist on the lowest price because the retailers insist on the lowest price. I always had to remind sales people that if a product had the best quality and the lowest price, we wouldn't need sales people at all, just order entry people. There has to be a balance. Taiyo Yuden has sacrificed sales and market share in order to offer the best quality. Memorex has internal battles between sales and quality assurance over the balance between the two, and marketing comes down in the middle. The fact that they have such high market share makes it easy for them to insist on high quality from their suppliers, and volume guarantees low prices; but sales people apply continual pressure to get prices even lower. (They get paid commission on the volume they sell. If a customer is unhappy with quality, the technical group and marketing are unhappy; but the sales guy doesn't care. He's already been paid.)
As far as media codes go, the discs with the greatest compatibility are Verbatim discs and Taiyo Yuden discs (especially the hard-to-find 8X TY discs; their 16X were a bit late to market and have less support in older drives.) Both are Japanese brands. Ritek 8X DVD+R DL are inverse stack discs with good but unpredictable support in only 8X DL drives (Lite-On and LG drives tend to support them) but with lower prices than Verbatim DL because of lower costs. All other DL discs are hit or miss with support.
I have scores of different types of discs, and I write the name of every drive that works with them on the clear blank that sits on top of each spindle. Discs that "fail" on one drive or another usually work on some other drive, so I only use discs compatible with a particular drive. It's a nuisance, but it works.
cyprusrom--by plug-'n'-play you mean something as simple and reliable as HDMI? Anybody who has run into HDMI handshake problems should know it's never as simple as it should be. By the time HDMI 1.1 had been sorted out, the marketing guys had jumped to v1.4. This is "progress."
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 16:09 |
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So I'm searching for recommeded media for my burners. I have a Sony dru-710a and a Pioneer dvr-111d.
I did find this pdf from Pioneer which lists the recommended media for the 111d. http://wwwbsc.pioneer.co.jp/product-e/ib...diaList_129.pdf
Scrolling down and looking at the double layer, for 2.4x dl's only the mkm 001 (Verbs) are recommended. For 8x they list mkm 003, ricohjpn d01, and ritek s04.
This is the kind of info which is nice to have.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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4. January 2010 @ 16:57 |
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The mention of both Ricoh and Ritek mean that your Pioneer drive supports inverse stack media, meaning that you can save some money if you want to choose those DL discs.
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. January 2010 @ 17:36 |
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Now the million dollar question. How do I buy media by the mid code? I know Verbs, there's only one for dl's.
How reliable is videohelp.com? Scanning through their dvd 9 listings and looking at the common brands I can pick up locally retail, I've found
- Memorex 8x
- Datawrite 8x
- Imation 8x
- Mitsubishi 2.4 & 8x
But, that's only if videohelp is current.
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Junior Member
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5. January 2010 @ 06:20 |
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It was never my intention to diss anyone, including peeps with thick hides ... :)
Yes, I might be a little sarcastic, sorry for that.
Still, firmware or not, discs should be pret-a-flammé, not subjected to a series of tests on firmware, laser strenght or whatever.
Funnily enough, most of them are! the Verbatims, the Sonys, the Philipses whatever, they all are ready to burn, raring to go and work with low failure rates.
So, how do YOU figure that, cyprusrom?
Question for the panel then:
1. Is Memorex innocent? That one really rubbed me the wrong way. (Is the failure rate of memorex, which is abysmal imho, entirely NOT that company's responsibility?)
2. If the other producers can do it, why not Memorex?
3. Should they have a warning on their discs, saying "might not work 50% of the time"? Okay, maybe not THAT one, but something like "Works only with this and that firmware". I'm really thinking that sueing them might be very profitable, for this reason alone.
4. Are they to blame for their failure to adapt, where other companies seem to have no problem of doing so?
5. Why should we "give them a pass" where those other companies don't have memorexs abysmal failure rates?
6. If one would change or upgrade firmware to work with memorex, who is to guarantee that it would not destroy the drives ability to properly burn other brands?
Originally posted by cyprusrom:
Is like dollar bills. They are pretty much the same, they might add some new color, new figures, but the size and main design remains the same. Theses are the discs. The stamp, shape, whatever you want to call it, is set, they adjust and increase the write speed/some dye properties once in so many years, but they pretty much stay the same.
Now you have the wallet manufacturers. They need to design them to fit the dollar bill. Same with the drives, need to have the proper firmware implemented so they can work with the discs already on the market.
Nice. There are no alternates for dollar bills, though.
And there ARE many alternate products for the memosux discs. Imho again, the car analogy is better.
Perhap, think about it like this:
If Britains inclination for imperial measures caused their products to be unuseable for 2/3 of the world, would we then say, oh hey, they are not responsible for their product failures around the world ("innocent")? Would we say, "oh hey, you had the wrong fits, it's just like that?" I think not. If the world changes and everybody seems to have no problem with that, than the Brits have a choice and the responsibility for that choice is theirs alone.
We would certainly not say "the imperial measure were here first (not sure that they were) so let's adapt to that" !
yes, yes, the analogy is not perfect but i hope you get it.
PS
I'd STILL would like to know where sony tvs can not be used because they break-down because of a 220 voltage .... ;)
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5. January 2010 @ 07:05
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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5. January 2010 @ 09:52 |
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Question #1: The rate of failure with Memorex discs using the CMC MAG MID codes is identical to that of all other brands using those same codes. The number of failures is proportional to market share, and in North America Memorex probably still has the largest market share and, therefore, the largest number of problems with incompatibility failures. The incompatibility is not with the brand but with the write strategy and the particular design of the disc. Other brands affected include Imation, HP, TDK, and sometimes Philips. None of them produce discs any more, and each one has THE SAME FAILURE RATE as Memorex.
Question #2:
Taiyo Yuden--Japanese; developer of recordable optical discs; supported by Japanese drives
Verbatim--Japanese; developer of DL media; supported by Japanese drives
Philips--Dutch; manufactured by CMC using Philips stampers; developer of optical media and keeper of standards; good support by Japanese drives
Sony--Japanese; developer of optical media; good support by Japanese drives
Ricoh--Japanese; developer of inverse stack method for DL; manufactured by Ritek; fair support by Japanese drives
CMC, Ritek, Prodisc, Infodisc, Princo--main Taiwanese manufacturers of optical discs (CMC and Ritek vie for title of largest manufacturers in the world); poor initial support of new discs or new drives, but firmware updates often turn support to good for CMC and Ritek; fair for Prodisc. Infodisc (maybe the largest supplier of rewritable media) has spotty support. Princo, far from the best in terms of paying necessary royalties, has spotty support.
Those "who can do it" are Japanese brands with close ties to the drive manufacturers. Once Taiwan began to produce more drives than the Japanese, even for Japanese brand drives, compatibility improved.
Question #3: Good luck with a warning. Wal-Mart had signs over its Emerson DVRs claiming they were compatible with 8X discs for half a year after being told those recorders would only work with 4X discs.
Question #4: Media are not adaptable. Drives and tape recorders are. That's the process.
Question #5: see the answer to question #1.
Question #6: proper adjustment to firmware should only be the addition of instructions for power settings and pulse rates when recognizing a particular MID code. There are no real "guarantees" in life.
Forget the Sony analogy; poor choice.
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AfterDawn Addict
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5. January 2010 @ 11:07 |
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Originally posted by bonkabonk:
...this,and that,
1).
2).
...
:)) Every time I read one of your posts/arguments, I see myself about 3-4 years ago arguing with Joe...Too stubborn to open up to logic, too much stuck on a preconceived idea.
To answer you questions, I'd have to say what Joe said, but probably I wouldn't be able to do it as eloquently as he did, he's far more skilled/knowledgeable.
Is not a matter of "who came first, who's got the bigger guns,that he should make the rule", so discs need to "adapt" to the drives.
It is based on practical, logical, a point that you keep on missing.
Before I go back to lurking, I have one last question(one last hope, for a lost soul:)):
In your view, Memorex/CMC.mag is crappy because they don't "adapt"(make the discs work with most drives). Lets say you have a batch of discs that have been manufactured sometime in July, shipped, distributed, and some are already on the shelves of OffMart, some might still be in some warehouse waiting. How in the name of reason do you "adapt" those discs to every single burner that will come out lets say in a few months, ammm...right before Black Friday for example, and thereafter? If it is not the burners that should have the firmware implemented to be able to read/burn the available plethora of discs, then how do you adapt the discs(which like Joe said, and I probably re-iterated it a few times-are not adaptable!)
Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5. January 2010 @ 11:10
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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5. January 2010 @ 11:23 |
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There is another reason why hardware manufacturers prefer this method: media manufacturers must produce a product in the millions that is precisely consistent with all product of the same type. If an improvement is made that changes performance such as a new dye or new process, then the MID code is changed. And all subsequent millions of pieces match the new version.
Hardware manufacturers use many more parts, and the supply of those parts is not always consistent. They are free to change laser diodes, motors, lenses, pick-up heads, and so forth. All of these parts are adjustable so that they can be tuned to the discs on the market. (In one famous example, the NEC ND-2100, if I remember the model correctly, swapped laser diodes in the middle of the production cycle. The new diode could be used for DL discs; the original could not. Firmware hacks allowed users to "upgrade" or destroy their drives, depending on which diode was in the drive.) Adaptability of parts allows hardware manufacturers more freedom, and that's why they build in adjustable settings for recording (EQ, bias, firmware, power settings) so that playback meets fixed standards.
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Junior Member
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6. January 2010 @ 12:30 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
The incompatibility is not with the brand but with the write strategy and the particular design of the disc (...) THE SAME FAILURE RATE as Memorex.
Again, says you, with not even so much as an INcredible link, let alone a reasonable credible one.
Let's say, I accept this from you, for the sake of argument. Why then do the other brands don't get this many complaints? If, this is true, then apparently they also have non-CMCMAG discs, why not memorex?
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Question #2:
Taiyo Yuden--Japanese; bla bla.
Unbelievable, again hiding behind a lot of irrelevant details and history. I asked WHY Memorex can not do what the other producers have no problem with, and you gave me a blatant example of not answering the question and a list of producers? Take your own advice on reading.
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Question #3: Good luck with a warning.
Again, not answering the question, but mere snickering. I asked for an opinion, instead you give me a history lesson. These are not the same. And please don't tangent into the value of history, I'm aware of that, and it's NOT relevant.
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Question #4: Media are not adaptable. Drives and tape recorders are. That's the process.
No, no, no. ALREADY BURNED MEDIA are not adaptable, their stocks and all that. Memorex apparently decided to also NOT update or adapt their production process, because of short term gains which equals long term myopia. Or, did they make enough stock to last them 6 years?
Also, why do you get to decide that the Memorex PRODUCTION PROCESS is forever the same? Why should drives, or anyone, adapt to a poor product? Yes, it's easier to change or update firmware. So what? Why should other brands do that? It's not their problem. So what if changing memorex production process will cost 10 or 100 times more than updating firmware, it's STIL not their problem
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Question #6: proper adjustment to firmware should only be the addition of instructions for power settings and pulse rates when recognizing a particular MID code. There are no real "guarantees" in life.
Again, snickering. But have you even tested this? How do we know that all drives recognize MID codes flawlessly?
The guarantee in life we DO have NOW, is that memorex discs will fail a lot, much more than other brands.
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Forget the Sony analogy; poor choice.
.
Finally! It took you 3 or 4 posts and repeated pounding to admit that one! I can see why you'd want me to forget it. So, hmmm, dunno. It is one of the biggest lacks in logic reasoning as well as an apparent complete absence of everyday and day-to-day knowledge I have come across on a technical board. Especially from someone who appears to have studied at least some discipline, it's odd...
Maybe I should stick to multiple choice questions ....
Be of good cheer.
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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Moderator
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6. January 2010 @ 12:34 |
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bonkabonk - You're becoming increasingly irritating now, at least everyone else has constructive comments/technical insight etc, you're just spouting a load of well, unintelligent, ignorant crap. You're entitled to your own opinions but all you offer is a wall of noise. Give it a rest now eh ?
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. January 2010 @ 12:40
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Junior Member
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6. January 2010 @ 13:45 |
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Originally posted by cyprusrom:
Originally posted by bonkabonk:
...this,and that,
1).
2).
...
:)) Every time I read one of your posts/arguments, I see myself about 3-4 years ago arguing with Joe...
Just because he outstubborned you, doesn't mean you were wrong. And just cos he overwhelmed you with details, which may or may not have been relevant to your discussion, doesn't mean you were wrong either ...
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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Junior Member
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6. January 2010 @ 13:50 |
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Originally posted by creaky:
bonkabonk - You're becoming increasingly irritating now, at least everyone else has constructive comments/technical insight etc, you're just spouting a load of well, unintelligent, ignorant crap. You're entitled to your own opinions but all you offer is a wall of noise. Give it a rest now eh ?
AFAIK, we're having a civilized difference of opinion on some technical issues, in which one takes a standpoint and defends that, hopefully with convincing and relevant arguments.
I'm sorry you feel otherwise, especially since you're a moderator with unlimited powers.
PS. As you can see, I've asked several times for credible links where we can verify what someone is saying, especially if a lot of knowledge is implied. How is that 'noise'?
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. January 2010 @ 13:55
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