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Why is Memorex so bad for burning 360 games?
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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6. January 2010 @ 13:55 |
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No, it doesn't...however, I was wrong because my logic was flawed.
According to your reasoning, lets say Memorex discs are changed this year, the entire plant/stamps/production process is remodeled to make the discs work with all the burners(hypothetically speaking,since is impossible, is like making a 5mm nut fit on a 6,7,8,9...mm bolt).
What happens next year, when new drives, with new firmware and new capabilities come out, you tear down the factory and start from scratch?
The discs are not modifiable. The firmware is the adjustable part, flexible, upgradeable.
 Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. January 2010 @ 14:41
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6. January 2010 @ 14:02 |
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Originally posted by cyprusrom:
In your view, Memorex/CMC.mag is crappy because they don't "adapt"(make the discs work with most drives). Lets say you have a batch of discs that have been manufactured sometime in July, shipped, distributed, and some are already on the shelves of OffMart, some might still be in some warehouse waiting. How in the name of reason do you "adapt" those discs to every single burner that will come out lets say in a few months, ammm...right before Black Friday for example, and thereafter? If it is not the burners that should have the firmware implemented to be able to read/burn the available plethora of discs, then how do you adapt the discs(which like Joe said, and I probably re-iterated it a few times-are not adaptable!)
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Of course, already produced discs aren't adaptable. But nowhere do I say that they should change already produced discs, but since they have a consistent bad track record, they must have decided to ALSO NOT change the way they make discs, but to continue to make crappy (CMC?) discs, without any product warning. This is what I blame them for, and this might be something that YOU have missed, in my posts. Or?
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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Junior Member
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6. January 2010 @ 14:07 |
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(We've must have posted at the same time.)
Originally posted by cyprusrom:
No, it doesn't...however, I was wrong because my logic was flawed.
According to your reasoning, lets say Memorex discs are changed this year, the entire plant/stamps/production process is remodeled to make the discs work with all the burners(hypothetically speaking,since is impossible, is like making a 5mm nut fit on a 6,7,8,9...mm bolt).
What happens next year, when new drives, with new firmware and new capabilities come out, you tare down the factory and start from scratch?
The discs are not modifiable. The firmware is the adjustable part, flexible, upgradeable.
Perhaps they should do how all the other producers do it?
No one here has offered me a reason why memorex should be so special that they should try to make less crappier discs. Not that anyone should, don't feel obliged, but im curious.
Again, why should others waste money, time and resources on something which is not their doing? I'm baffled.
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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6. January 2010 @ 14:10 |
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No, you were very clear...just wrong. You keep failing to see the relationship between discs and burner/firmware.
When you plug a new piece of hardware in you machine and it doesn't work, who's fault is it? The hardware manufacturer, or the people that write the software, the drivers for your hardware? What do you do, you make a new video card work with every computer on the market, or you just make the card and then update the supporting software/driver(which in our case is the burner's firmware).
Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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6. January 2010 @ 14:16 |
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Originally posted by bonkabonk:
Perhaps they should do how all the other producers do it?
No one here has offered me a reason why memorex should be so special that they should try to make less crappier discs. Not that anyone should, don't feel obliged, but im curious.
Again, why should others waste money, time and resources on something which is not their doing? I'm baffled.
Another point that you missed, or didn't take seriously...Taiwan vs. Japan manufacturers.
Why would a Japanese drive manufacturer(like most on the market) have a higher support for a Taiwanese disc manufacturer instead of one of their own?
Politics, business, not giving a flying fudsicle about the consumer.
I that the consumer's fault? No.
Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!
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Moderator
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6. January 2010 @ 14:45 |
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Originally posted by bonkabonk:
[I'm sorry you feel otherwise, especially since you're a moderator with unlimited powers.
PS. As you can see, I've asked several times for credible links where we can verify what someone is saying, especially if a lot of knowledge is implied. How is that 'noise'?
Sorry if i'm harsh, this is just getting silly. Even moderators get irritated, but like the other mods here i have two hats, and i'm in this thread as a normal poster.
As i say you're entitled to your opinions, i just don't know what more you want. And i don't know what more i can do, i'd already made my opinions on discs as clear as mud, i thought i was at least helpful.
The other guys are giving their own personal experiences, and Joe is giving that plus his indepth knowledge of the hardware/the industry and media manufacture, i don't see what else anyone can answer, there's easy ways to find out the different MID codes for most discs, the only bit i think that's tricky is the bit that i refer to as a lottery, ie if there isn't a way to distinguish the different MID codes from the tubs/packaging of discs (the way you can with say, TY discs for example; this used to be the case a couple years ago, don't know if it still is) then you can't guarantee exactly what MID codes you will get from any given tub of Memorex or whatever brand.
My knowledge of media is probably a couple years old now as that's the last time i bulk bought anything, and i only ever bulk buy, i just gave up keeping up with the various media out there. I just use TY, Verbatim, Maxell 16x +R (which used to code out as RICOHJPNR03 but now it's only CMC MAG M01 i think, but that's ok as they are excellent discs), and what i refer to as 'sexy Verbatim TY', the fabled TYG02 discs that Verbatim were selling back in 2005; i bought large amounts of those back in 2005 and am only now making a dent in them as i normally only use Verbatim and Maxell. These TYG02 survived extreme temperatures as i lived afloat for a few years and all my blank media (and backups) lived on the floor of the boat ie a foot or so under the waterline so my faith in media is a lot better than it used to be.
Just remembered, as i say i use stupid amounts of the Maxell, which used to only be RICOHJPNR03 (and that's what i would always specifically order), then one day i noticed the MID code from a disc out of a new tub was CMC MAG M01. I was annoyed and thought there'd been a mistake or something. Contacted the supplier and it they said that they could no longer guarantee whether you would get RICOHJPNR03 or the CMC's. I made noises about sending them back, then realised i'd opened all the tubs and swapped discs around various other tubs so the discs were completely mixed up and there was no way i was going to check thru two or three thousand discs to determine which were the CMC discs. So i put aside my ignorance/bias of CMC and used them. Never looked back; haven't used any other CMC, but only because i stick with the discs i'm used to and only change if there's no alternative; just habit.
And when we say Verbatim it could mean CMC and i think Prodisc, so my point is that we can get biased about brands/companies when maybe we needn't. I said it further up the thread but i can't comment on Dual Layer media or xbox 360 burning specifically, however my comments i think are still relevant enough to the discussion so should help in some way, hopefully.
End of war and peace, i'll shut up now. :)
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. January 2010 @ 15:02
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scum101
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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6. January 2010 @ 16:22 |
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Memosux aren't the worst.. that crown goes to Mr DVD .. closely followed by tdk 16x
But.. we have got rather off track here.. you can by all means burn whatever on a memosux d/l disk for a 360 .. and have it scan and verify great ON A PC .. but put it in a 360 and it's a borderline read situation at best and a damaging duff disk more often. Now don't know anybody here who knows how to modify a read strategy in the 360 drive firmware for crap non reflective or rippled media..
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Junior Member
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6. January 2010 @ 16:35 |
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Originally posted by cyprusrom:
No, you were very clear...just wrong. You keep failing to see the relationship between discs and burner/firmware.
When you plug a new piece of hardware in you machine and it doesn't work, who's fault is it? The hardware manufacturer, or the people that write the software, the drivers for your hardware? What do you do, you make a new video card work with every computer on the market, or you just make the card and then update the supporting software/driver(which in our case is the burner's firmware).
Relationship? What relationship?
Sorry, I'm under the impression that we have industry standards to AVOID these particular entangled 'relationships'? I see that you want to imply that Japanese drive-makers favour their own Japanese discmakers and don't care about other disc makers.
I know of no japanese-american-european incompatibility in this respect, I only know about a memorex-rest of the world incompatibility.
All discs work with all burner/drive/firmware, except for memorex.
why is that?
Sure, there are of course some incompatibilities between this or that appliance and software/hardware. But with a 50% failure rate? Not that I know of, but I don't claim to know éverything.
I just recognize faulty logic when I spot it ...
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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Junior Member
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6. January 2010 @ 16:46 |
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Originally posted by creaky:
Originally posted by bonkabonk:
[I'm sorry you feel otherwise, especially since you're a moderator with unlimited powers.
PS. As you can see, I've asked several times for credible links where we can verify what someone is saying, especially if a lot of knowledge is implied. How is that 'noise'?
Sorry if i'm harsh, this is just getting silly. Even moderators get irritated, but like the other mods here i have two hats, and i'm in this thread as a normal poster.
As i say you're entitled to your opinions, i just don't know what more you want. And i don't know what more i can do, i'd already made my opinions on discs as clear as mud, i thought i was at least helpful.
Well, I'm glad it isn't case of "I'm gonna ban you since you dissed my good friend"
And you were surely helpful in adding some other viewpoints to the discussion, I think I've changed my stance (somewhat ;)) because of them.
Quote:
End of war and peace, i'll shut up now. :)
This makes me serendipitously think of the album "The Rise and Fall of Love and Hate"
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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6. January 2010 @ 17:17 |
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bonkabonk-you know of no intentional Japanese incompatibility because you have not read dozens of posts describing them. Some others: IEC tape standard violations; Panasonic intentionally disabling playback of DVD+R/+RW discs because of DVD Form standards violations; Japanese drive manufacturers failing discs that they had not even received from Taiwanese suppliers; and so on. You must recognize faulty logic when you see it--you seem to use it all the time.
scum101--Thanks! I think you proved a point. The worst discs are Memorex; and TDK is even worser; and Mr. DVD is the worsester of the worsest. (CMC MID code again in the case of TDK, and perhaps for some Mr. DVD since "MCC" was reported as one MID code--likely CMC rejects meant originally for Verbatim.)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. January 2010 @ 22:23
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scum101
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7. January 2010 @ 10:15 |
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Cheers Joe
I only have my real world burning findings to go on.. and some branded disks are always awful whereas some are middling bad and some cheap ones can be excellent.
I have been using Samsung 16x disks for about 12 months now and they are purdy good.. same price as the tdk/memorex nightmares.. but they code as optodisk manufacture. I should really scan one sometime and see how well they really perform.
I'm sure like me you remember the "TuffDisk" brand when it started out? .. First spool I saw were superb.. I scanned one.. TY01 .. the next spool 4 weeks later cmc.. not bad but a few fails..
Last lot I saw you could see the print where they had previously been printed "imation" through the overprint .. and out of 100 there were 68 failed to complete burns... 68% failure rate off the spool.
When people like imation reject them then they MUST be bad.. hehehe.
This seems to be an across the board rule of thumb.. IF they are on bargain sale in wallyworld or similar.. and carry a big name brand.. and seem a little cheap.. what we most likely have is bulk clearance of seconds.. other proper shops returns. I have been to big auctions and seen pallets of dvd's sold for pennies.. pallets.. not boxes.. put in by places like pc-world for literally dumping.. must cost them less than returning them to manufacturer or paying "landfill tax" on them.. At these auctions I have had coffee with buyers from big chainstores looking to buy "special offer" bulk lines.. a couple of pallets of dvd's.. a couple of "managers special" washing machines.. that kind of stuff.
End of line or overpurchase returns.. or distributers returns from stores.. that's what these auction houses specialise in.. so I would always say.. with media, like batteries.. buy them from somewhere reputable that has it's main line of business selling just such things or related products.. or you are taking your chances. I have seen so called verbs in one high st store dirt cheap.. out of interest I bought a 25 and they were mid "fakes" (yeah.. there is actually such a brand) and came in as cmc write strategy.. and failed miserably.. they were the last nail in my nd-3200. killed it finally and completely after failing 4 burns.. We know they come from somewhere in India or Korea at last guess. What does a food store know about dvd quality? Buy from a proper computer shop not wallyworld. If they only sell their "own brand" alongside maybe tdk or heaven forbid Mr DVD then leave them where they are.. They will be "special purchase" from some crap clearance auction.
I have a huge spool of junk disks here. I guess it's time to fire up my missing customers xp machine with my samsung burner and have a look at some disk id's by brand. Right now I'm still swearing at some ricoh-japan d/l's which fail about 30% of the time at the layer break.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. January 2010 @ 10:48 |
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When prices for discs are amazingly low, that is usually because they are B-grade product. Those discs include all production on a line from the time the last QC check approved production until QC failed the lot. That means that the failed batch can include good discs at a rate than can vary from 1% to 99%, depending on the timing of the faulty process. Factories can't afford to sort the discs. They used to regrind them and use the plastic for the jewel case trays; but today's cases are thin and clear, so they can't use the junk for regrind. Instead, some factories, including CMC, sell B-grade production to anyone willing to pay the price. It's seldom worth it unless one knows that the ratio of good to bad exceeds 90%--but there is no way of knowing.
Since Ricoh invented the inverse stack process for DVD+R DL discs, I suspect that your drive may have a problem writing to those discs because at the layer break the inner layer appears "upside down" to the drive. That was a big risk Ricoh and Ritek took in IS discs, but they could dramatically lower costs, increase yields, and improve production quality using that method and limited the risk to 8X DL discs, perhaps thinking retailers would keep both 8X and 4X on the shelves. Retailers refused to carry extra stock, and not all 8X DL drives are suited for IS production for a number of reasons; so the consumer once again is penalized for the lack of technical knowledge and cooperation on the part of manufacturers, distributors, and retailers.
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scum101
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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7. January 2010 @ 11:17 |
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I don't think so.. does it with my nd-3550 which is to be expected, but my samsung (18 months old) handles them pretty much the same. I just think they are a dodgy spool.. I don't really burn anything on d/l media. It's not worth the effort.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. January 2010 @ 12:50 |
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I agree with you on DL media. The media were not ready when the drives were released, and they are still prone to problems.
I have attached some links for those who requested them rather than search for information themselves.
To give you an idea why market shares are not public information, I've included a listing of what it costs to get such information. Retail companies typically pay $10,000 to $20,000 annually to get market share data.
http://www.marketresearch.com/search/res...datepub=24&xs=r
http://www.futuresource-consulting.com/media.htm
Those companies that have high shares, of course, state their case in press releases. In North America, NPD has found Memorex to have the highest market share in ALL optical discs sold at retail in North America; and this has been true every year from the late 1990s until 2009. Verbatim claims the highest world-wide market share, and that includes duplicator sales in addition to retail. Memorex does not participate in duplicator sales because they are not a manufacturer.
http://www.npd.com/corpServlet?nextpage=retail-tracking_s.html
http://www.npd.com/corpServlet?nextpage=...-reports_s.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/MEMOREX+RE...RE.-a0130378452
http://www.independentfilm.com/technolog...-nu~print.shtml
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/memo..._now_available/
For technical information regarding testing and certification of discs, these links may be helpful. The major players in test equipment are AudioDev, Datarius, and Expert; and all three make very expensive equipment. Some of these sites have excellent white papers on the technology that are worth reading. Media Sciences and OSTA are two other organizations that offer very good information about optical discs. Memorex used to have a "Reference Guide to Optical Media" in a pdf file that was very accurate, comprehensive, and easy for non-engineers to understand; but it is no longer on their website or the Imation website. I have a copy, but I don't know if the moderators allow posting of such material. Unlike most such documents from brands, it is free of commercial nonsense promoting the brand (probably because Memorex sources from several different suppliers).
AudioDev http://www.audiodev.com/
Basler http://www.baslerweb.com/
DaTARIUS (formerly kdg/Koch) http://www.datarius.com
Doug Carson Associates http://www.dcainc.com/
Dr. Schenk http://www.drschenk.com/
dr. schwab http://www.schwabinspection.com/
Eclipse http://www.eclipsedata.com/
Expert Magnetics http://www.expertmg.co.jp/
Mediatechnics http://www.mediatechnics.com/
Pulstec http://www.pulstec.co.jp/en/
Stagetech http://www.stagetech.se/
Steag ETA-Optik http://www.eta-optik.com/
http://www.osta.org/
http://www.mscience.com/
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ddp
Moderator
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7. January 2010 @ 13:05 |
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joe, post it, i'll take the flak if there is any.
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scum101
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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7. January 2010 @ 16:17 |
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I would be very interested to have a read of that. I had heard of it but never found a copy.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. January 2010 @ 17:19 |
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ddp--
If I remember correctly, it's a large file, even in pdf format. I think it was about 70 pages or so, but there are lots of graphics and examples. Is it possible to send an attachment to an email address or treat it as a "guide" of sorts? Loading it as a message post would take up too much space.
How would you like me to send it in for people to download if they want to?
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scum101
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7. January 2010 @ 17:38 |
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I stick stuff up on sendspace or zshare .. that's quick and easy.
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ddp
Moderator
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7. January 2010 @ 23:18 |
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possible to do a link to it from a hosting site?
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. January 2010 @ 23:49 |
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I took scum101's advice and tried Zshare--thanks!
Reference Guide for Optical Media.pdf - 2.26MB
It seems a bit out of date when discussing Blu-ray vs. HD DVD, but everything appears to be accurate. There was also a version for flash media that explained all the formats and how they worked. The Cinram material is no longer on the Cinram site, unfortunately; but that material was much heavier on math and physics and probably too deep for non-engineers.
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Junior Member
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8. January 2010 @ 04:54 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
bonkabonk-you know of no intentional Japanese incompatibility because you have not read dozens of posts describing them. Some others: IEC tape standard violations; Panasonic intentionally disabling playback of DVD+R/+RW discs because of DVD Form standards violations; Japanese drive manufacturers failing discs that they had not even received from Taiwanese suppliers; and so on. You must recognize faulty logic when you see it--you seem to use it all the time.
Joe,
lack of irrelevant knowledge is NOT faulty logic. And pray tell, where exactly do I use faulty logic. You never, everrr back up what you say, now do you, Joe?
What IS faulty logic, or at least highly suspect logic is:
Your claim that Memorex makes high quality discs, but, because people just used them wrong, they failed 30-40 percent of the time. You followed that up by stating that that Sony TV's will not work on 220 volts ("Sony makes wonderful televisions. Plugging them into a 220 volt mains socket will destroy them 100% of the time") IS strictly speaking also not faulty logic. It is, however, just not TRUE, in a ridiculous fashion.
Claiming that I, or others are tarnishing innocent brands and then making unsubstantiated (and clearly ludicrous) claims about Sony, is TOO faulty logic. Of the hypocritical kind.
You make a lot of claims about ... a lot, like for example sales figures. You never offer one shred of evidence to back that up.
Perhaps this all comes down to trust? Yep, I don't know you, so why should I trust you? Especially since you have a shoddy way of reasoning, never back up what you say (maybe you're too good for that?) and avoid questions but answer them by snowing us under in irrelevant details.
Just some reports on how these other brands which use/have CMC, are also failing at around 50-60 percent or something, would go a long way. I've lost count of how many times I've asked you.
Oh and if asking for some credible link, to BACK UP what you say (or just, you know, for the heck of it) is the same as harassing you, or dissing you, then yes, I'm guilty of all that.
Sorreee!
- If at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you....
- Youre a mod. Stupid questions are part of your job, especially those repetitive ones ... ;) Get used to it. Enjoy it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. January 2010 @ 05:51
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scum101
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8. January 2010 @ 09:41 |
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Thanks so much Joe .. Will have a read and digest over my coffee in a few minutes :)
I'm ignoring the rest because I actually want to improve my knowledgebase above what are only my own observations concerning drive and media suitability.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. January 2010 @ 10:43
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. January 2010 @ 11:14 |
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I must say, I can't remember following a better thread here on AD. And I've been here since '03. The knowledge you gentlemen are bringing to the table is priceless.
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scum101
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8. January 2010 @ 14:09 |
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UMDJ
Member
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11. January 2010 @ 00:18 |
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i understand that many have have a bad experience with MEM, but to me, that doesnt mean that they are a bad product. In all honestly, you are only going to here the complaints, because those who are satisfied, really dont feel the need to say so over the web, or read the complaints of others. I myself on the other hand, will look at reviews even though I dont have problems. I have a very high success rate with VERBS, TDK AND MEM. the only time i dont is if i burn at a high rate, or try to multitask on my yesterdays news PC. So as long as I continue to have good burns, I will continue to purchase Mem's
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