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The Official Graphics Card and PC gaming Thread
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 10:22 |
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Haha you're quite right Rich, Shaff's post works fine at home obviously, but I'm usinga uni computer and it completely ruins the page! :D
A $200 board though? on your budget that's just unnecessary, for the sake of using overpriced DDR3 or gettinga few more mhz out of the CPU it's a waste of time. Especially if you're going to add a second graphics card the money would be far better spent getting an X48 board like the X48-DS4.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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20. October 2008 @ 10:51 |
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Yes, Sam, I'm finding that for sure, the DDR3 memory is super expensive, especially all the way up to 2000. I was on a site, [H]Enthusiast that was talking about the 4870 and edge detect AA, and they mentioned using this type of asus board and fast processor to make sure not to bottleneck the 4870. So I figured, "great" but I see that the memory is VERY expensive. But maybe I don't need the DDR3 all the way up to 2000. I think I can get it up to about 1200 or so, for about $200 for 4 gigs, up from the $100 we had budgeted.
But of course everything has to work together - there are lots of compromises. I was reading something yesterday about how GDDR5 won't be taking over for a while, because another type - maybe it was DDR3 - is starting to experience major price drops as motherboard manufacturers start to use it more.
I'll pull up the board you recommended in a minute.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 11:11 |
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That's a load of rubbish, PC2-5300 doesn't even bottleneck a 4870X2.
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 11:53 |
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Also, I would get a Q6600 instead of an E8500...
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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20. October 2008 @ 12:56 |
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Well Boozer, the Q6600 is just about the same price as the 8500, but that's the old thing about quad versus core 2 duo. I remember reading, not too long ago, in anandtech about that subject - maybe 6 months ago - and the conclusion was: If for the same money as quad, you can get faster core 2 duo, then that's the way to get the best bang for the buck, because not that many games actually took advantage of the quad architecture. Has that changed? We can get 2.6 quad, or 3.16 core duo, for $10 more. I don't know how they compare to each other on over-clocking. Why do you recommend Q6600?
Sam, that is good to know about the lack of bottlenecking. Does that also apply to crossfire? Hey that gigabyte board is beautiful - looks just as nice as the asus, and uses cheaper DDR2 1200 memory. It doesn't however have the newer p45 chipset, and at about $220, I found a $25 cheaper just as nice deluxe Asus "hiding" on newegg, the Asus P5Q Deluxe, which is their p45 chipset, 1600 fsb, crossfire, and DDR2 1200 memory. It's only $195, about $55 more than the non-deluxe version of the same board which is missing the vrm heat sink, and which also doesn't have the multitude of discrete components - mosfets, whatnot, that all the deluxe boards have.
The funny thing is I passed right by it as I went up the price list of Asus boards, because I was looking for "crossfire" on the expansion slot information. My guess is nobody knows the board is over there on Newegg, because when you go to the product web page, you find that whoever wrote it up left out all the expansion slot information on the spec sheet. Under Features you will find crossfire.
The funny thing is that at $244 Newegg has a bundle with the exact same P5Q Deluxe and a sound card, and on the web page for the combo the spec sheet lists all the expansion slots, 2 pci-e 2.0 x 16, crossfire support at x8, etc. etc. and crossfire therefore is also one of the features that shows up on the big price-sorted list of asus boards. When I found the bundle, I wasn't smart enough to just go back to look for the same board, unbundled. I didn't see crossfire, so that was it, no suspicion that they would ever accidentally leave out information so important to their marketing. I have never caught Newegg in a screwup like that before - have you? P5Q Deluxe web page missing expansion slot info.
So Shaff, as you can see I want to bump the brilliant build by $55, which takes us to $540, and substitute the Deluxe version of the Asus board you picked out - price is $194.99 on newegg. I see that you DID go to faster memory at 1066 up from 800. Now keep in mind that for the same price we could get the P5Q3 Deluxe board, with DDR3, which Newegg is out of right now, or for $159, the non-deluxe version of the DDR3 board. On DDR3 they go up to 2000, but very expensive memory. Is there something about DDR3 that makes DDR3 1066 faster than DDR2 1066, or does the 1066 mean they are the same speed? Edit: I read a couple more articles - the faster DDR3 has slower latencies, but if you get can afford to buy the DDR3 that is faster than DDR2 - for example if we got DDR3 1600 versus our DDR2 1966, we would be able to overclock by more. But anyway, the cost difference is horrendous, and if Sam thinks there won't be any bottleneck even with crossfire, then for sure no point dumping in the extra cash.
One more thing: Yes, the 4870 at 10.5 inches is fine - my case is about 20 inches long. But width-wise, my case is a standard 7" wide. The Tuniq is 6" wide. Do you think it will fit? I kind of doubt it. Do you have any other type of cooler that isn't so tall?
-Rich
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. October 2008 @ 13:16
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 14:56 |
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Rich's call at the end of the day. With one 4870, the E8500 wins. With two, the Q6600 does.
Rich, the X48 and P45 are both new, the X48 is actually a better chipset, the P45 just overclocks slightly further. I think you're getting confused with the older X38 that I use.
Crossfire's bandwidth is limited on P45 so you will get degraded performance, it isn't on X48, so what you see is what you get.
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spamual
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20. October 2008 @ 15:04 |
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if you are insistent on going crossfire, a Quad will do wonders as the CPU is guzzled when using crossfire, ordinarily, ask anyone, im a dual man, very stubborn at that :D, but for crossfire, it need a big CPU over head.
i would suggest the Q9550.
that sound card is what i am about to get, for gaming music and videos, is simply put, fan bloody tastic.
sam, alots of tests have put P45 CF vs X48 CF, nad have come to a conclusion that the P45 was worth the money more, due to its better OCing, and the fact that there was about 5% on avg difference in frame rate.
also the X48 has a 90nm procces IICR where as the P45 has 65nm.
rich, PLEASE do not get DDR3, as the only good chipset for intel board atm (not counting i7) is the very good 790i, BUT you will then need to go for SLI, which if you want to do, sounds good, but your an ATI fanboy :D
before everyone flames the 790i, its become a brilliant chipset, at beginning it was a POS, but the problems have gone,a nd its the best nvidia chipset since Nforce4.
alsoo please do not go DDR3, as the FSB has a maximum theoretical bandwidth of 10.6GB/s and DDR3 easily execeeds this, and so goes unused. this leave just higher latencies with the DDR3 over DDR2, even with the extra speed and it completing clock cyles twice on the falling and rising cycles of the memory, leading to a quad pumped effective speed, the FSB kills any advantage.
if you really want to be overkill, then IMO wait for i7 :D
you, our P4 APG upgrader, can be our i7 guinepig :D
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 15:08 |
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The 790i still uses like 50% more power than the P45, the 780i used almost double. Avoid them both, regardless of whether they've improved or not, I don't trust them, I don't trust any chipset that uses as much power as an HD3850 graphics card.
Also, the difference between the p45 and X48 overclocks in the REAL world I'm sure is no more than 5%, I'm willing to bet it's less. So you can't get to 6Ghz with an X48, I couldn't care less, it's not stable regardless.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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20. October 2008 @ 15:15 |
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Well, yes I could be the nehalem guinea pig - that would be fine with me. I might as well get a new case for this whole bit - I see that the case I have just barely accepts the 4870 - I would have to relocate a hard drive most likely. It won't take the Tuniq in terms of width, there would be a noticeable bulge in the side of my case, Lol.
I just read that Nehalem could be coming end of this year - well that is soon upon us. So I guess maybe that's a good strategy - I will be the Nehalem guinea pig. Hah! Good idea! Thanks,
-Rich
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 15:17 |
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The HD4870 is standard extended length, so will fit in almost any mid tower case. Tower coolers, however, are more problematic, especially for Coolermaster cases as they're narrower than most.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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20. October 2008 @ 15:34 |
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Sam, for example, a case like the NZXT Tempest. Is that, first of all, a mid-tower? Yes, because you have a version of it. Is YOUR case wide enough to take a cpu tower? And how much room do you have behind your 4870x2. Would a disk drive be able to be located right there, with no problem on the power and ide or sata connections?(I believe I like your idea of staying a bit down-size from a full tower, in case I want to lug around and plug into the HD TV one day for example.)
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 15:36 |
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My case isn't related to the Tempest, it's just built by the same company, but both are mid-towers. The hard disk cages for the Tempest and lexa are orientated differently, there is no trouble fitting a 4870X2 in the lexa for that reason, but to use one in the Tempest you MIGHT have to not use one of the hard disk bays. Fortunately the Tempest has two drive bays (two lots of four drives) versus the Lexa's one stack of five.
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spamual
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20. October 2008 @ 16:43 |
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well if one wants good DDR3 (read fast, as X48 are poor for that) the 790i is mandate, jsut saying, not saying to get it over P45, esp as i am nto recomending DDR3, im just saying the best boards for DDR3.
november 17 is Core I7, (how did we not see that coming :p)
yes sam your right, but its the same with x48 CF vs P45, as no cards utlise most of the PCIE-2.0s bandwith :D
P45 cheaper, easy OCer, and runs cooler :D
but my guineepig, id suggest getiing a Lian-Li PC-A70B :D
and then watercooling the i7, with the swiftech GTZ
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 16:48 |
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DDR3 is just an unfortunate side-effect of any chipset that uses it... :)
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Senior Member
2 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 16:52 |
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Are we still on topic
I mean with all the talk on DDR3, mobos, and what not
What happened to gaming and graphics cards :P
Just asking, I don't mind cuz I might learn something
(+[_]%) 1: 2.60 > 2.80 > 2.81 >3.03 > 1.50 > 3.52M33 > 3.52M33-4 > 3.90M33 > 3.90M33-3 > 4.01M33 > 4.01M33-2 > 5.00M33 > 5.00M33-3
My GAMING LAPTOP!! : Acer Aspire 5930G - P8400 2.26Ghz//4 GB DDR2//GeForce 9600M GT 512MB GDDR3
Ultimate Handheld/Portable Gaming Device :P |
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spamual
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20. October 2008 @ 17:22 |
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well this has become our generla Hw forums for us young uns :D#
the light relaxed place for us crack heads ( i mean geek junkies) :D
what would one like to know?
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 18:53 |
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Hehe, it all comes down to video cards :)
Plus we don't have mods threatening to kill us down here. It's nice.
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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20. October 2008 @ 20:46 |
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Let me get this straight, shaff. You want the guinea pig to buy a $250 full tower case?? What part of mid-tower around one hundred bucks did you not understand?
Lol
Look, I'm actually willing to consider Lian-li, and sure, I'll do watercooling too - why not. I wouldn't mind picking up some watercooling experience.
But surely Lian-li make mid-tower cases too, don't they? Size-wise, if you want me to install the 6" Tuniq, (if we don't do the water) the mid-tower has to be about 8" wide, (my present case is only 7" wide) and for the 4870, I would prefer at least 20" long - my present case is only 17.5" long and the 4870 would be quite a tight fit indeed. Sounds like I want a mid-tower of the PHAT subspecies, not some extra-slender beastie.
I guess I should look up the specs of the tempest.
Sam, the way you describe the Tempest with the two hard drive bays, sounds like THAT would work, since I'll be running straight Sata drives and probably just a couple (what is in those humongous files you guys have??)
Hey I know some people set up the Sata drives with Raid - which I think treats all the drives as one big drive. Truly, can anyone in a nutshell explain what is the BIG deal about that - I should do some reading I know - I never understood the point.
I'm more like Shaff, keep everything separated from each other. I mean, what if one drive goes bad, and your data is spread over that one bad drive and two more that are still good. WTF???
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 21:14 |
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I wouldn't buy a Lian Li. They are overpriced and I don't care how much quality they ooze. Others are cheaper and pretty damn well built also.
Rich, you're getting a bit carried away aren't you? I mean it's your money and everything, but I would cool my head first...
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harvrdguy
Senior Member
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20. October 2008 @ 21:48 |
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Cool my head, what do you mean COOL MY HEAD!! WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I'M UPTIGHT?
. . . . . A N Y T H I N G . . . I N . . . P A R T I C U L A R? ? ! ! !
lol ... hey Ray, who might learn something even if we're off topic! (That was funny - it made me laugh.) Are you the same Pakistani Ray who lives in SA and can't get the Tempest - no that was GTR who is in SA. Sorry.
Speaking of the Tempest, I downloaded the manual and got the specs.
God wants, oh sorry guys, I forgot where I was, I mean Allah, "allah akhbar!!" Allah wants me to get this Tempest, I don't care how many billions of chinese people are rooting for the Lian Li.
Listen to these specs:
In my earlier post just above, I said I needed 8" wide, right? The tempest is 8.5" wide. I said I needed 20" deep, right? The tempest is 20.5 inches deep.
IT WAS MEANT TO BE!!
(I didn't say anything about height, but my current mid-tower is only 16 inches high, and the tempest is 20 inches high.)
So this is exactly what I was looking for, Allah be willing. I must buy it! Good news shaff, if we don't do water, the Tuniq, which is 6" tall, will definitely fit in this case.
Now booze, you just have to get a grip. I know shaff said this was the land of the crack heads, but lay the pipe down once in a while, you know what I mean? You just have to get hold of yourself bud. I'm the Nehalem guinea pig, get it? (whisper: I have to sort of pretend to do what shaff says.) :D
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spamual
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20. October 2008 @ 21:51 |
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oh well boozer, till you have one in real life you will never understand :)
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 21:52 |
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lol well calm down buddy. Of course the tempest will fit your stuff, all enthusiast cases will. not really a big deal.
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spamual
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20. October 2008 @ 21:53 |
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haha rich.
the tempest is a superb case, to flash for me, BUT comes down to personal preferance.
your damn right your the guinnee pig, if not then whoooooooooo??????????
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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20. October 2008 @ 21:54 |
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Oh and don't listen to Shaf. He is a little mentally unstable.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. October 2008 @ 22:30
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spamual
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20. October 2008 @ 22:29 |
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yeah im so not sane, that i miss spell unstable... :P
and then i change it after as not to look like a fool, but my edit time is after the other persons post :D
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. October 2008 @ 22:33
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