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Post Your Bad Media Experiences Here
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forkndave
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1. October 2005 @ 19:34 |
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I was just checking some old discs to see how they were holding up. I checked them with Nero CD/DVD Speed Disc Quality Test on a BenQ 1620. here are the results:
Prodisc S03 recorded 23 Nov 03
PIE Max 26 PIF Max 11
Avg 9.63 Avg .19
Total 73118 Total 1567
POF 0
Ritek G04 recorded 27 Nov 03
PIE Max 2715 PIF Max 378
Avg 936.05 Avg 76.98
Total 10981036 Total 858714
POF 283
Ritek G04 recorded 2 Aug 04
PIE Max 2798 PIF Max 959
Avg 1373.95 Avg 227.93
Total 18236139 Total 2970739
POF 5572
This shows, to me at least, that Ritek is no good at all for long term storage. Prodisc, at least the S03 seemed to be OK. Unfortunately, I don't think they make them any more. I managed to copy these discs with my Pioneer, which will apparently read anything. The BenQ would hang up trying to read them. All of my drives had trouble reading them except the Pioneer. No more Ritek for me. I've been sticking with Verbatim and MIJ Maxell lately.
Dave
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. October 2005 @ 19:36
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brobear
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1. October 2005 @ 21:20 |
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forkndave
Heard complaints on the Prodisc being sold by Memorex. I'd suspect they aren't as good as the earlier batch you used.
Ritek enjoyed a good run for awhile, but then they started changing the dye for some reason and their quality headed south. Still supposed to be decent, a lot of people still state having good results.
It would have been interesting if you had done those tests on the DVDs when you put them in storage and have something to compare with the results you now have. Most media, if stored in their case in a decent spot out of sunlight and high heat, will last a long time. Those stories of DVD rot are mostly poor manufacture, things like poor bonding of the polycarbonate layers and using bad dyes and poor manufacturing procedures to begin with. And none of the manufacturers, including the Japanese, are free from bad runs. Quality control often catches the problem and often the bad media won't make it to market. However, some bad media still hits the shelves. That's what the guarantee is all about.
I had a questionable experience with the CMC being sold by Memorex. When they first started selling them in the +R format, I accidentally got some of them. Before the Memorex 4X +R had been Ricoh. I got a high rate of coasters from the bunch. However the ones that I did get recorded are still playing well today. I used them back when I was still putting labels on the discs. Just a marker nowadays and label the case. I'm not going to go back and check the backups from that period for codes because I'd be at it for a few days. Suffice to say, all the backups I got in the case are still playing well. They're mostly Ricoh, with some TY, MCC, and Sony in the mix, and that small batch of CMC. I won't go into the brands, there's a few of those, but the manufactured product is consistent.
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forkndave
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1. October 2005 @ 21:40 |
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I have always checked the first and last 5-10% of my discs with K Probe and something like this would have shown up. When Prodisc first shifted to MCC media they were pretty good. Lately not so much so. Even though Prodisc and Verbatim 8X -R share the same media code, MCC 02RG20, they don't appear to be the same. The Verbatims are a slightly different shade and burn much better. The last Riteks I bought were G05 and I would get a coaster if I tried to burn them at 8X on any of my burners. At 4X they are iffy. Any DVD should be able to be burned at it's rated speed. My 16X Verbatims burn fine at 16X although I usually stick to 12X. Very seldom ever do I get a coaster with them and if I do it's probably my fault. These three DVDs were all stored in DVD cases. Actually these three were in the same case for the last several months. They are all three of the Austin Powers movies and I put them in a case that will hold four. Found an Austin Powers Trilogy label for the case and stuck that on there. These discs do not have labels on them either. They are ink jet printable. I have had labels cause problems just like this.
Dave
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. October 2005 @ 21:46
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brobear
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1. October 2005 @ 22:34 |
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Manufacturers don't set up different facilities for each brand they supply. The brand is just a matter of labeling. Sometimes the dyes vary a bit and sometimes you're getting light refraction due to the labels. It seems you're mistaking the Prodisc coded manufactured product with the brand. If they were selling MCC, then they were doing like other companies and selling products by other manufacturers. The Memorex is a Prodisc manufactured product, not the brand name. Confusing brand and manufacturer happens often the way the media companies do business. The regular consumer doesn't even know whats going on. They just see brands and usually buy the same, not knowing they may not be getting the same product each time. Even with brands that manufacture their own media, there are those that sell products made by others. Maxell, and Sony readily come to mind. If I reviewed the situation, I'm sure there are others, such as the Prodisc you mention by MCC. I can easily see where Prodisc by MCC would be preferable to the Memorex by Prodisc or Prodisc by Prodisc for that matter.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. October 2005 @ 22:43
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forkndave
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1. October 2005 @ 23:37 |
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I have gotten Prodisc with MID codes of MCC 02RG20 and MCC 01RG20 (4X) that weren't very good while I haven't gotten any verbatims with those codes that were bad. Maybe Prodisc buys verbatim rejects, I don't know. The Prodisc don't have any brand on them because they are hub printable. The Verbatims aren't hub printable and are marked as Verbatim. I did get some Verbatims once from Supermedia store that weren't very good. They did not have a brand on them, but their MID was MCC 03RG20 (16X). There was a Verbatim label on the package saying Data LIfe Plus. Some were pretty good and some were not so good. These were the only Verbatims I've got that weren't so good. I have gotten prenty of MCC coded Prodisc that werten't very good. Now I buy My Verbatims at Sam's Club. 100 16X printable + or - R for $41.00 and some change. No problems at all with either. I buy Maxell hub printable 8X + or - R at Wall-Mart. They are made in Japan and are something like $15.60 for 25. That's a little high, but I have no problems with them. I don't think I will get any more online as long as these are available. At least there's no shipping and I have them right now.
Dave
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2. October 2005 @ 03:53 |
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those are the same sort of problems i've had with many MCC-coded Datawrite discs. if i want to buy MCC i go with Verbatim as the Datawrites (for me) put me off non-Verb MCC discs. just my opinion.
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brobear
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2. October 2005 @ 07:01 |
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Mitsubishi is sort of the house product for Verbatim. However, Verbatim over time has used different outside manufacturers. I try to stick with the made in Japan, which is usually MCC or TY, or the ones with AZO dye listed on the labeling. The DataLifePlus has been a safe bet. Verbatim has been selling some CMC media which is the media that helped ruin Memorex's name. Mostly in the cheaper product line, if any Verbatim is cheap (except at outlets like Sams). I bought some Verbatim at Sams once and they were coded with the Ricoh MID, good media btw.
You can go by the theory that there are a bunch of people employed to pick out the individual lower grade discs for resale to various sources or not. If you like to think that happens, look to what would be involved. It would be highly worker intensive to check all the media coming down the line. What is the criteria? Check every disc both physically and on a drive for read errors? A lot of time spent checking and the profits go out the door. Most lines would do a random sampling from runs, but not individual discs. Naturally the lines are being watched for physical defects, those are easy. I've heard of manufacturers selling off overruns and some have hinted that some have sold off media that should have been destroyed. So who knows what really goes on in the factories? I think a good part of what happens is market driven. Ruin the name and sales drop. That is the main force that drives quality. Otherwise, as long as they didn't get sued, they'd send whatever they could down the line to make a buck.
My PC hasn't learned to read labels yet, so it's pretty happy as long as I feed it decent quality media. I do tend to stay away from no-name media. Luckily, most of my library is backed up using Ricoh media from various brands. Fuji, Imation, Maxell, RiData, Verbatim, Sony, TDK, and Memorex are just a few of the brands that sell or have sold Ricoh, and don't forget the Ricoh sold under the Ricoh label.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. October 2005 @ 07:11
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AfterDawn Addict
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2. October 2005 @ 07:13 |
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A friend just gave me a disk that they backed up. I have told this person repeatedly to not use Memorex, which they didn't. Instead they went out and bought NexTech, which is CMC Mag. Needless to say the movie turned out really bad in quality. This is another media that if it turns up in any posts, tell the poster to get something else.
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forkndave
Member
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2. October 2005 @ 11:56 |
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I bought some TDK 8X +R a while back at Costco and they turned out to be CMC MAG coded. Surprisingly, they seem fairly decent. I guess time will tell if they are any good. I never knowingly buy CMC. The TDK -R sold at Costco are made by TDK. I don't know if there are Costco stores in the east, but they are a membership store similar to Sam's Club. Over at CD Freaks they seem to think CMC are among the best. I've never shared their opinion.
Dave
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Moderator
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2. October 2005 @ 12:05 |
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@forkndave - re CMC at CD Freaks - i've noticed a lot of that over there, over here we (i think) spend a lot more effort going thru logfiles etc, then if all has been tweaked and ppl still have problems, a media change is next to try, all before the possibility of a duff burner is diagnosed. At CD Freaks i see endless talk re write strats etc, ie they like trying/tweaking different firmware to get good results on all media, even bad media, whereas here we just want the man on the street to begin burning, and keep burning consistently.
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. October 2005 @ 12:06
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nick2004
Junior Member
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8. October 2005 @ 19:00 |
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Beware of the 100 spindles of verbatim 16x inkjet printable DVD-R's at sams club, I just got a spindle and about the first 20 have dvdrot on the outer edge of the discs. Anyone know if they will give me a refund? Ive used 3 before i noticed it.
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forkndave
Member
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8. October 2005 @ 19:20 |
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I haven't had any problem with those but I don't think Sam's will give you any problem about taking them back. My wife works at Sam's and she tells me that that they take almost anything back if you have a receipt. Sometimes without one. She tells me that people sometimes bring things back months later after they've worn whatever it is out and get a refund or at least store credit. Good luck.
Dave
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nick2004
Junior Member
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8. October 2005 @ 19:25 |
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Thanks Dave.
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brobear
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9. October 2005 @ 04:44 |
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Hmmm... Those fraudulent returns are among the things that run up costs for all consumers. Don't we just love it.
If there's a problem with the return at Sam's the media is guaranteed by Verbatim. Read the label and you'll see the guarantee and return procedure. Of course the return to Sam's would be the easiest if they take it. Which normally they will. Been a member at Sam's for some time and know they go out of their way to please the customer, usually.
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brobear
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9. October 2005 @ 05:00 |
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Nick2004
Quote:
I just got a spindle and about the first 20 have dvdrot on the outer edge of the discs.
What do you mean by DVD rot? People have a tendency to use that term loosely. Is there some sort of manufacturing defect that is obvious? In which case that isn't rot. Describe the defect if you will.
Rot is what was earlier referred to as chemical degradation of the media (spots develop in the dye layer), not manufacturing defects such as chipped edges and bad polycarbonate layers. It wasn't true rot anyway. Most of the problems found with DVDs along that line were present from manufacture. It just gets worse over time. The culprit is bad dye from the start in some cases. Not rot if the problem was already there. You'll see some discs come apart at the edges and lead to problems with the inner dye layer, but there again, a manufacturing flaw.
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Senior Member
2 product reviews
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9. October 2005 @ 06:50 |
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W00T, happy birthday to this thread. It turned 1 yesterday :)
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Moderator
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9. October 2005 @ 07:46 |
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and many happy returns for it's future birthdays, it'll be interesting to see what manufacturers/dyes/whatever are featuring in this thread this time next year :)
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nick2004
Junior Member
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9. October 2005 @ 08:03 |
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There's tons of little pinholes around the edges on about the first 20, sense its only on the first 20 it seems like maybe the air got to them somehow and caused it?
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brobear
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9. October 2005 @ 14:57 |
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nick2004
Are the pinholes in the inner dye layer or are they in the outer polycarbonate layer? Either way, that doesn't sound like what is commonly referred to as rot. Sounds like they just had a problem with the run. I doubt that would be typical of the overall product. Normally Verbatim enjoys a pretty good rep. Before you send them all back, check them with an ID tool such as DVD Identifier, free, and let us know who made them, manufacturer ID.
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nick2004
Junior Member
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9. October 2005 @ 16:32 |
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Im not sure what you mean by inner or outer layer, there small dots similer to if you took a needle and poked it on it although i cant tell if its actually a hole but it seems to be what they talk about with dvd rot and looks like the pictures shown here http://www.andraste.org/discfault/discfault.htm
PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-108 1.10 (ATA)
Current Profile: DVD-R
Disc Information:
Status: Empty
Erasable: No
Free Sectors: 2,298,496
Free Space: 4,707,319,808 bytes
Free Time: 510:48:46 (MM:SS:FF)
Pre-recorded Information:
Manufacturer ID: MCC 03RG20
Recording Management Area Information:
PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-108
Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: 0@P-!-00
Book Type: DVD-R
Part Version: 5
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 1
Track Path: Parallel Track Path (PTP)
Linear Density: 0.267 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 0
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 0
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nick2004
Junior Member
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9. October 2005 @ 16:38 |
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if what you mean by inner dye layer is the part that is purple and the main surface thats where they are, wasn't sure if you meant underneath the main surface or what.
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brobear
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9. October 2005 @ 18:32 |
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Well, it was Mitsubishi (MCC), which is considered by most forums and test groups to be one of the best manufacturers. As I mentioned earlier, any company can have a bad run. That's what the guarantee is all about. There was a lot of pictures on that link you provided. If you looked at the construction of a disc, you'll notice there are 2 polycarbonate layers with the dye layer in the center. The dye layer is the one which gives the color; silver, purple or whatever. Was the pinholes in the outer layer or in the inner layer? Either way that doesn't sound like rot. What is referred to as rot is a deterioration of the inner dye layer, not a defect that is present at the time of manufacture.
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nick2004
Junior Member
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9. October 2005 @ 18:42 |
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It seems to be on the outer layer, Maybe they got scratched up on the machine or something? If sams doesn't take them back and i go threw verbatim for replacements will i half to send the ones back that ive already printed on? Thanks for all the help.
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brobear
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9. October 2005 @ 18:52 |
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There are a lot of things that could have happened to cause the polycarbonate layer to be defective. Anything that causes a problem with the clarity can cause read errors. It could have been from the time that the layers were manufactured, before assembly or during the assembly process. The outer edges are where problems usually occur because that is where the edges are pressed and sealed together. You can imagine the possibilities. Sounds like a bad run to me, not rot.
I don't remember exactly how the guarantee is stated. Just read the warrantee and use the contact info for Verbatim if you need to. I agree with forkndave that Sam's will probably take them back. With Sam's though, they will require you to return the entire package, preferably with as much of the original packaging as possible.
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nick2004
Junior Member
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9. October 2005 @ 18:54 |
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Man thats going to be hard to do, I cant return it with a dvd label printed on it :(
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